109 | The Trend of Ignoring Trends | How Matilda Andersson Uses Ethnographic Research to Uncover Real Consumer Insights in Drinks

This is MAFFEO DRINKS.
I actually love how you're

talking about, you know,
insights happen at the bar.

I that for me is ethnography.
You know, it's that you know,

the insights of what people are
up to isn't happening in a focus

group facility with a double
sided mirror.

You know, what people are up to
is happening at the bars, but

it's also happening in their
homes, on the picnic, on their

commute, you know, on a Sunday
dinner.

In this episode, I'm joined by
Matilda Anderson, Managing

Director at Truth Consulting.
With her, we talk about the

trend of ignoring trends.
So something that she wrote in a

previous article and really
caught my attention.

In this episode, we talk about
ethnographic research, the

importance of ethnographic
research.

We go into my approach of, you
know, getting and gathering

insight, sitting at the bar,
observing consumers and how to

ground it with a with a better
and more robust quantitative

analysis.
We build on some of the

discussions that I've also had
with Paul Thomas in in previous

episodes.
We also talk about the framework

of the four CS and we talk
about, you know, Gen.

Z and Boomers and are they
really different as a many

article talk about or actually
not really?

I don't want to spoil the
episode, so let's dive in now.

Hi, Matilda, Welcome to the
massaging podcast.

Hi.
Great to be here, Chris.

We realized that we have a
common city in our in our past

Stockholm.
In our past and in our.

Hearts so, but we I think we
didn't, we didn't, we didn't

bump into each other back in the
days.

No, I think I've lived in London
there for 25 years.

But I'm from Stockholm and yeah,
go back a lot.

Love Stockholm a lot.
Fantastic.

So let's start like tell us a
little bit about you and what

you, what you do and and then
I'll start asking you some some

interesting questions for our
listeners.

Cool, Yeah, I've worked in
insights and research all my

life.
All my career I've been finding

out what, what people are into
what's happening in culture to

help brands show up in more in,
in more meaningful way for for

people for their customers.
And I'm, I'm extremely

passionate about helping brands
be culturally relevant and

consumer centric.
So I think a lot of people kind

of say that they just like fell
in to working in market

research.
I think I'm quite like, it's

really like where I want to be.
It's where I've always wanted to

be.
And I've in that career, in my,

in my journey, I've been able to
work for, for brands like the

BBC and work for agencies and
had the opportunity to work for

a lot of drinks brands.
So I've been doing work, you

know, insider in beer, in
whiskey a lot, a lot of whiskey,

rum.
And it's so fascinating because

drinks just play such an
important part in in in culture

and in people's lives.
And this is this is a fantastic

point of what you're bringing
because I was discussing it just

like recently with with Ben
Branson, for example, of from,

you know, Seedlip and Silva and
and Seasn.

Now, the fact that, you know,
like we tend to leave, I mean

drinks, we don't see the drinks
as a category, but actually, you

know, there is a for right or
wrong, you know, plays a role in

culture.
You know, there's all the trend

about, you know, drinking less
and are people drinking less or

not?
But, you know, the fact that

actually it is a historical, I
mean, I'm a big history lover

and one of the reason why I love
working with drinks is not

necessarily for the drinks
themselves, for the, for the,

for the categories themselves.
But it is because they play such

a role in, in culture
historically that, you know,

they are part of everyday life
for a reason.

I mean, if we take the
Oktoberfest, it's, you know,

it's a feast for, you know,
celebrating and thanking God

for, for the harvest.
You know, it's a, it's a

harvesting celebration.
You know, that then becomes a

cultural phenomenon and people
tend to forget that.

But, you know, it always starts
with that, you know, the, you

know, I'm here in Czech
Republic, but in Italy as well,

all this wine, you know, wine
harvest, all these festivities

about wine and and so on, you
know, and then it goes to

whiskey and and and so forth.
But we we tend to forget this

cultural element and we play and
correct me if I'm wrong, like in

my assumption, but we tend to
play, we try to stick it back to

a cultural aspects, but in
modern culture forgetting the

traditional elements of of this
cultural element.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, I mean, it's, we

talk a lot about, you know,
habits, ritual in, in our work,

in, in, in insights.
And, and I think that kind of,

you know, so rituals are
important, like how we, how we

come together.
And, you know, whether it's kind

of, you know, the Friday night
drink or, you know, the, the,

the Sunday kind of dinner with
everyone around you and kind of

the, the social connection and,
and the rituals around drink.

I think we, we tend to forget
in, in, in modern culture, but

it's still, those things aren't
going away.

They're enormously important for
how people live their lives and

feel part of something.
Absolutely, absolutely.

And you know, I like to segment
it in my own frameworks in kind

of like traditional occasions
and modern occasions.

Now, you know, there is always
this element, if we take pyroni

as an example, as a common
element, you know, there is,

there will always be this
element of having Italian food

or a pizza or an appetitibo with
an Italian beer.

You know, that will never leave
that realm kind of thing.

Then you can also have it on a
skyscraper in Burj Al Arab in

Dubai, you know, or in a, you
know, in a fancy cocktail bar in

Stockholm.
But that element of an Italian

restaurant serving an Italian
beer will never leave.

And we, we, we often tend to
forget that by jumping on what's

trendy, you know, and, and this
is like some, some of the

conversation I want to have with
you is about this element of

trends now.
And, and I remember you, you

know, I read an article from,
from you on the drum and you

were mentioning the fact that,
you know, I, I love that quote.

It was like the trend of
ignoring trends, you know, and

that struck with me because I
was like, you know, what's this?

Because you know, like I'm, you
know, sometimes I'm of obviously

I want to see what, what is
trendy.

But then often I, I'm also very
much against trends and like,

OK, let's stick to the
foundations and let's not jump

left and right.
So what you know, can you

explain what you what what what
you mean by the the trend of

ignoring trends?
Yeah, absolutely.

Like, I mean, that that article
creates a little bit of a stir

in the, in the trends industry,
as you can, you can imagine.

I mean, some of the smartest
people that I know work, work in

trends and I am, I'm a big fan.
But I think there is a danger of

kind of focusing too much on.
And I think actually it goes

back to what you were talking
about traditional and modern

occasions or, or culture.
I think some things are

happening, I know fast and some
things are kind of changing

slowly.
So I think just looking at

things, you know, the latest
food truck truck or the, or the

latest dance that's become
popular on on TikTok, it's loses

its meaning.
It's just something that's what

here one day and gone, gone
tomorrow.

And, you know, so it's about
having a long term on a short

term perspective because you
know, the kind of the

fundamental cultural shifts that
are have enduring impact on

people's lives rather than just
kind of jumping on and and to

kind of copying what other
people are doing because it's

just something that's happening.
It's a happening rather than

something that is worse really
spending your your your your

efforts on.
And how, you know, how can

brands, you know, kind of like
differentiate or like a decide

on what is actually like
something worth jumping on or

something that is actually OK
that that's trendy, But you

know, let's leave it to whatever
competition or or other

categories that you know, it's
not really something worth

pursuing.
Yeah, such a good, good

question.
And actually a lot of clients,

they come to us because they
have trends, like they've

already, you know, a lot of them
have trends framework.

So they've kind of they, they
spotted trends, but they're

like, what are we going to do
with this?

Like, what does this actually
like mean?

And I think it is about what do
they mean for you?

Like what does it mean for you
as a brand?

What does it mean for your, your
portfolio?

And a lot of that kind of not
feeling overwhelmed by all these

things going on and the trends
happening is about looking

inwards and figuring out what,
what you're all about.

What is the vision for your
brand or you know, what, what

are, is the strategy within
your, your portfolio of brands?

Where are you trying to play?
And, and where have you got

permission to play within what's
happening in cultures?

So it's about going back to, to
what you're you're all about

really.
And do do you feel that, you

know, like many brands, you
know, kind of like lack the

stability on, you know, like the
of OK, what's the core of what

my brand stands for?
And then, OK, let's, you know,

get all this noise, but you
know, like, just like passing by

me.
And then I just stick to it

because I want to focus for the
long term what the brand, what I

believe my brand stands for.
Or do you do you think that

there is this kind of like
friction and, you know, going

left and right on, on brands?
And I'm not talking about your

clients.
I'm talking about in general at

what you see companies doing in,
in, in business.

Yeah.
I mean, I think there's a kind

of, there's a tendency to always
be trying to find the next big

thing.
And in that I, I see a lot of,

you know, kind of chasing the
next flavour or ingredient or

kind of cultural phenomena like
the, the, the video that just

just gone, gone viral.
But it does end up being a

little bit of a, of a mess
because you're, you're, you're

just doing, you're just looking
the same.

And I think 1A good example of
that is brands, everyone wanting

to become more premium and the
kind of the premiumisation.

But actually what we've ended up
with is like a really bland

space where all brands look the
same without any

differentiation.
And, and, and everyone is

sitting in brand strategy
meeting saying that they want to

be premium, but it's like where
you all just look the same.

So I think that's the kind of
also, you know, a good example

where there's like, you know, a
trend and, and, and kind of me

to think in in strategy.
And I see, I mean, I, I was

smiling because I, I see this a
lot.

I mean, I, you know, whenever
I'm sitting in meetings, but

even my past when I was, you
know, working with brands

myself, there's always this kind
of like, I mean, if you, if you

were to, you know, you couldn't
admit that your brand was not

premium Now, So then it was
just, you know, that there was

this creation of terminology
like upper mainstream or lower

premium or, you know, because
you knew that your brand has

nothing to do with premium.
You know, you wish, you know,

like it's like you, you wish to
be cool, but you're not cool.

So it's like, you know, like
wanna be cool.

You know, it's like a wannabe
premium sometimes rather than

premium.
And and there is this element

that, you know, if you don't
make your own kind of like

self-assessment, then you can
look at yourself in the mirror

and say, OK, I'm not premium.
You know, my brand is not

premium and there's nothing
wrong with it.

You know, I can make billions by
not being premium and by being a

stream.
And let's face it, and let's

just like be honest with
ourselves now.

But do you think that there's
something about, let's say,

self-awareness of, you know,
knowing what your brand stands

for and at the meeting, what
your brand stands for?

Yeah, I think there's a kind of
in it, there's a really

important, if you're going to go
on the journey of really

understanding what your
customers are into what's

happening in culture, you need
to do that with the grounding of

what you're all about.
It's kind of like when you're

going to with any relationship,
you know, in a relationship, you

kind of don't want to lose
yourself in the relationship.

And I think kind of deep work,
really understanding customers

and understanding what's
happening in in culture and what

role you want to play in the
category to, to actually have

anything meaningful come out of
that.

It's it's so much about figuring
out who you are in that in that

relationship.
And, and building on this like

it did, building on this, there
is this element of kind of like

dicotomy between what you, let's
say what a brand stands for

today versus what you would like
it to be.

So very often when I'm sitting
in meetings or talking to brand

owners, it's not much with brand
owners, I would say more like

brand managers of existing
brands.

Now there's always this
rejuvenation and the

premiumization and what we
discussed before.

But you know, there is this
element of understanding, OK,

you know, who is actually
drinking your product and who

would you like to drink your
product now?

And in the PowerPoint you show
me in a, in a meeting room, you

know, I've, I've never seen
those people drinking your

products.
Sorry, you know, sorry for the

wake up call, but you know, like
I've never seen them, you know,

so if you go to the supermarket
or if you go to the bar, you

will see the real people now.
So there is this element of

understanding what's in the
present, which is probably the

source of business that are
people buying your product and

who you would like to become
consumers, shoppers and so on.

And so how can you help, you
know, brands kind of like, you

know, I understand this probable
futures and all, like rather

than, yeah, how, how, how do you
my question like, let me

rephrase the question like so
how do you, you know, how can

you help brands identify this
probable futures for themselves?

Yeah, it's really, really good
question.

And I think I mean the the thing
about, you know, there's that

gap between who your customer
really is versus who you want to

go after.
I mean, I think there is an

element of it's OK, you want a
little bit of Halo effect.

So you're kind of having a bit
of a sweet spot of who you're

kind of ideal customers.
But but then but I think it's an

input in that important not to
exclude people.

And also, and we talked a little
bit about boomers in our only in

previous conversations.
And it's about, you know, kind

of, yeah, older people are do
actually exist.

First of all, like, you know, in
market research, you kind of

capped a lot of research at like
55 plus.

Like the people above, there are
people in the world who are

older than 55 and they do
consume your, your, your product

and they actually don't consider
themselves to be old.

So, you know, confused think
about that because, you know,

there's a lot of amazing people
like Kate Moss is a boomer,

right?
So, so I think it's like kind

of, yeah, definitely like, you
know, who's actually like don't

exclude people in that, that
way, because there's an amazing

opportunity to to speak to to
your actual people.

And, and I think, you know, it's
not just about consumers, it's

about, you know, people don't
consider themselves to be

consumers of your brand.
They consider themselves to be,

you know, they're, they're,
they're people most all of the

time and only consumers some of
the time.

But I think, I think with, with
probable, probable futures that

the brand should focus on, it's
about, you know, I think

sometimes we kind of trends
work.

We think about trends and then
what we should do about the

trends, but I think it's about
brands also figuring out what

role they want to play in
culture.

So and, and, and it kind of, you
know, it's about, you know, what

values do we have?
How do we want to, how, what do

we want the future to look like?
So when we do scenario work and

understand possible, you know,
scenarios that might happen,

it's like, OK, so if we have 6
different scenarios, what the

future might look like, you as a
brand have an opportunity to

shape those.
You know, go for the scenarios

and try to shape them and make
sure that they happen if that

makes sense.
Like, so it's not just about

possibly receiving what might be
the future, it's about playing

an active role of what you want
the future for your Brandon, how

you want to show up.
Yeah.

But but on, on, if I understand
correctly, the this element of

like the probable future, I'd
say, you know, let's say, does

it still play a role in this?
Let's say, does the

self-awareness that we discussed
before play a role in it?

Because you know, I feel the
very often brand owners or

managers.
They still don't give up on

their dream.
So it's kind of like, how do you

set the line between like,
sorry, this is this is a dream.

It's never, it's very probable
that it's never going to happen

or, you know, OK, let's fight
with all the strength we can to

make that happen.
You know, like what, what, what

do you see?
You know, like, do you see in,

in your everyday life, you know,
do you see people are kind of

like really realistic about
their brands or because I, I'm,

I'm asking you these questions
because I feel what we were

discussing before now, that's
very often everybody jumps on

the same trend.
Now I give you a real example.

So for for the listener to make
it simpler to to follow the

spirits, you know, spritz is a
typical example where you would

have and countless reports or
trends and you know, spritz is

growing and everybody wants to
do spritz and every deck

probably has an up at all case
study of how they did something

and so on.
But then it's like, OK, but you

have a rum brand, you know, So
what?

What are you going to do about
it, You know, and is your brand

suitable in that kind of like
spritz occasion or is it like, I

don't know, like 55% alcohol by
volume and it's never going to

be, you know, easy drinking
aperitif.

And also sometimes like I I see
the owners and brand managers

like jumping on something just
to make it happen.

So it's like the rum spritz, the
whiskey sprit, you know, like

the now I'm.
Exaggerating.

But you know what I mean, Like,
you know, anything spritz or

anything and tonic or anything
and grapefruit juice or anything

with ginger ale, you know, it's
like, what is your experience in

in basically being self aware
and say, OK, like this is the

trend.
We acknowledge that this is a

trend, but we want to stick to
certain things.

More absolutely.
I mean, I don't know how many

briefs I've seen.
We want, you know, what's the

what's the next April spread,
you know, like how how can we

into that that moment?
I absolutely.

And I think it's that that in a
ways where where you kind of

you're cloning too much on what
your competitors are doing.

You know what, what's happening
in the category and instead of

finding a new kind of ocean to
swim in, you're just trying to

kind of muscle in on the same
thing and follow the same trend.

Absolutely agree 100%.
And there it is about, you know,

what are the critical factors,
but but what are we?

So what are we about, you know,
what occasions do we play in?

How is that occasion shifting
for people?

Is there an opportunity there
for us to kind of innovate?

And, and there I think, you
know, actually innovation and

coming up with generally new
ideas through truly kind of

understanding what's happening
in culture and for people and,

and being kind of, you know,
curious about what what's

happening in people's lifestyle
where there might be an

opportunity space that fits with
you.

It's, it's, but in the sphere of
what you are versus what's

happening in culture.
And for Q&C, where the kind of

magic is.
And actually, I remember doing

some ethnographic research
around whiskey and, you know,

whiskey brand wanting to attract
younger consumers and the kind

of realisation of, you know,
people just breaking all of the

codes in terms of mixing whiskey
with, you know, flavours,

berries, kind of different kinds
of mixes.

And, and, you know, like that
nobody in he was kind of working

for a brand would ever dream up.
But like actually understanding

how people use your, your liquid
is kind of can, can be

fascinating.
And then what are they wearing?

What they listening to how you
know how they socializing you

know and but in a in an
authentic like where you can

actually play a role as a brand
if you're wrong, for example.

And let's, let's, let's take a,
let's take a step back just to

understand that's to explain
what is an ethnographic

research, just to just hold it
for all the listeners.

Because I, I actually, I, I was
doing an, I mean, I was working

on an ethnographic research when
I was in my old times in, in

grow in, in Stockholm.
So actually it's a, it's a funny

coincidence that we're talking
about in ethnographic research

now.
But can you just clarify what is

an ethnographic research and in
this in this example.

Totally, absolutely.
So I mean, I, I actually love

how you're talking about, you
know, insights happen at the

bar.
I that for me is ethnography.

You know, it's that you know
that insights of what people are

up to isn't happening in a focus
group facility with a double

sided mirror.
You know what people are up to

is happening at the bars, but
it's also happening in their

homes, on the picnic, on their
commute, you know, on a Sunday

dinner, all of those kind of
lifestyle moments.

Ethnography is about going where
people are and and spending time

with them, observing and
understanding what's going on

rather than firing lots of
questions at them in in a in a

in a room with other
participants.

So it's a, it's more about
observation and kind of like,

let's call it like a silent
observation so that you don't

really prompt stuff, but you are
observing what they're doing so

that they are more kind of like
honest with with with what you

see.
It's allowing to go about doing

what what they're doing.
I think it's you know, I

actually think that ethnography,
you don't have to be a kind of

completely silent observer.
I think you can do participant

observation where you as a
research, you know, so if you're

at the bar, have a drink, you
know, if you're in their home

kind of you know, and you're,
you're trying to understand how

you're participant is cooking in
their small kitchen, for

example, you know, help them
cook, understand, you know,

what, what the space is like.
So I, I think it's, it's about

being there and being present
observing rather than just kind

of having very structured
questions.

But it's OK to also be kind of a
participant yourself in the

research setting.
And apart from my biggest

favorites, the the sitting at
the bar element like where where

would you say it's kind of like
unexpected or undervalued place

to, you know, for drinks
companies to observe people

consuming, buying or drinking
or.

Well, I just think like, you
know, so much is like happening

in the home, like even before
you go, you know, I mean, it

depends on who you're, you know,
but actually what's happening

over dinner?
What's happening when you're

getting ready to go to the bar?
What's what drink are you having

when you're coming home?
You know, but also like other,

you know, what's happening at
festivals, What are people

talking about?
What drinks are they having?

You know, So what what's going
on?

What's what's happening when
you're having a kind of, you

know, like a family picnic?
Yeah.

So I think it's like wherever
the kind of energy is, wherever

the river flows, that's where
you should show show up.

And of course, not all brands
can spend thousands and

thousands of pounds on sending
people out to people's home all

over the world.
But I think actually doing kind

of ethnographic work through
digital platforms is super like

efficient way of being where
people are these days.

And do you think that there's,
you know, there's a bit of a

kind of like laziness from brand
people or drinks people, you

know, to go to the bar?
You know, like one of the

biggest thing for me was always
the, you know, like whenever I,

I mean, I work with global teams
and it's always like when I,

when I hear somebody say like,
yeah, we should organize a trade

visit, you know, because I, you
know, like I need to go out to

the trade.
And it's like, yeah, but don't

you go out?
I mean, don't you go for dinner?

Don't you go for drinks?
Don't you go for, you know,

there is this element that, you
know, we need to ask someone or

we need to, you know, you know,
the salespeople will know, let's

ask the salespeople or let's,
let's ask an agency, you know,

but if you, let's say, ask the
wrong question, then you get the

wrong answer.
So do you, do you think there is

an element that you know brands
are kind of like the pre work

that should be done before
coming to you asking you for for

help?
You know, I do.

I think, yeah, I think you're
spot on there.

Like I think, you know, a lot of
of, I mean, I think the problem

is that often briefs when it
comes to research, you're

already thinking about people as
respondents, like kind of almost

like Lab Rats that you're going
to ask specific questions.

And then if you are kind of
branching out, you'll go, OK,

we'll go, we'll go to the we'll
go to the bar.

And I actually, I remember a
really amazing study a few years

ago understanding how guys, men
are kind of their attraction

journey or like meeting, meeting
girls.

And the idea there was that you
of course, then you go to a bar.

But actually when we started
talking to young guys, they were

going to McDonald's.
And it's sort of like you're if,

if you kind of bring too many
assumptions without having that

broad perspective of people's
lives, you, you're often missing

the point and you're not
spotting where the tensions are

or where things are changing.
Wow, that was there.

Must have been a great discovery
for and what, what what wasn't

happening before going out or or
after going out the McDonald's?

Or you just, you know, chatting
someone up in McDonald's seemed

easier than chatting someone up
at the bar.

Wow, that was and let let's I
mean like building on what you

were saying now, like about, you
know, younger, younger

generation.
Are we you you mentioned before,

you know, like we we laughed
about the boomers and the Gen.

X and I mean everything,
everything everyone is a boomer

for Gen.
Z anyway, you know, so doesn't

really matter if you're not Gen.
Z, you're a boomer, but you

know, like, what is this whole
thing about Gen.

Z?
You know, from your perspective,

let me let let let me ask you a
very broad question on on this.

Yeah, I mean, I think the same
as, you know, kind of

challenging.
Should we really be talking

about trend?
I would definitely also say

should we really be talking
about generations, right.

I do, you know, quite often it's
about it's about age.

You know what, what are people
actually doing at different life

stages?
But life stages are also

becoming more fluids.
So I mean, I think there is

something about Gen.
Z and, you know, when it comes

to, for example, like premium
for Gen.

Z is often about, you know,
brands, values and kind of how

they're actually showing up in
in, in, in a way of

demonstrating value for them
rather than kind of sticking a

gold leaf on something.
You know, there are changes in

terms of food and drink and but
you know, I I would definitely

debunked to mint the Gen.
Z on on drinking.

I don't think that's that's
missing quite a lot of neurons

in the Gen.
Z journey.

But then the same things are
happening for Gen. for the

millennials, Gen.
X and boomers as well.

It's just kind of they're coming
at it from slightly different

angles.
So often what's happening in

culture is if for one generation
is usually happening for another

generation as well, but just
kind of slightly different,

presenting in a slightly
different way.

And let's dive into something
you said, you know, the, the,

the, the Gen.
Z, well, the, the myth of Gen.

Z not drinking.
What's your, what's your

experience on, on that?
You know, there was a recent

article, you know, you know,
recently something came out

saying like, no, it's not true
that Gen.

Z is not drinking.
Are they drinking or are they

not drinking?
They are drinking, but I think

they're, they're drinking in, in
different ways.

And I do think that like health
and mental health is super

important.
I also think that like food is

really important.
So, and, and with that kind of

flavour and curiosity of
flavours, but that they're like

drinks come in again.
And I think it's about, you

know, it's yeah.
So, so, so it's not that you're,

you're not, they're not
drinking.

It's just what's the experience
of consuming alcohol on the

occasion is a slightly
different.

And I, I kind of, I, I read
somewhere that, you know, there

are more people who have like
food T-shirts, like restaurant

brands on their T-shirts over
band names now, like kind of

foodie culture.
I think it's really like

interesting for the gem Z for
example.

That's a very interesting one
because actually literally

yesterday or the day before, I
went to buy some bread in a

bakery here in Prague.
And the guy in front of me on

the on the, on the queue, he had
kind of like a fruit seller

T-shirt, you know, So it was
something in Italian and it was

something like delivering, you
know, it was written in Italian.

It was something like delivering
fruit to you since.

And I was thinking like, who the
hell is, you know, having a

T-shirt of a fruit seller, which
is, you know, well, for sure is

not deemed with all respect, but
it's not deemed as something

cool to have a T-shirt on.
I mean, it's not like a rock

band, you know, like a fruit and
veggie kind of seller, but

obviously for that guy was was
something now and it it stuck

with me because I was like, this
is so interesting, you know,

like I would never think about
it.

And what you're saying it's is
that, you know, like that there

is an old set of values that are
different from a for different

generation.
But I mean, another typical

example, you know, we were
laughing with my wife that she,

she said she, she's from the,
the, the countryside here in, in

the Czech Republic.
And she said that when she grew

up, as, you know, going to
school, she used to have, you

know, like a proper meal.
You know, like you, you would

bring meal to school and she
would have like sausages and,

you know, but homemade, you
know, with the pork from the

grandma, you know, like with the
pig from the grammar.

And, and she was ashamed because
it was like, you know, the, the

switch of, you know, from
communism to, you know, free

society.
So all these kind of like snacks

were coming in from, you know,
from back then Western Europe.

And and she she told me that she
was ashamed that she had the

Super genuine food because all
her friends, they had snacks,

you know, and the snacks were
cool, but you know, the, the ham

and the sausages and the veggies
from the garden where something

to kind of like be ashamed of,
you know, and like we were

laughing because we were
thinking now it's exactly the

opposite.
Imagine now, you know, like if

you had something with a super
crafty meat, you know, to your

school instead of like a
packaged goods, you know.

So there is this element of
cycles also in society, but it's

also about understanding.
OK, let's look at something, but

let's analyze what does it
actually mean for for different

kind of generations.
Exactly, and I think I mean, I

really, I think food is, is
super interesting to look at.

Like if you look at kind of food
influencers on on TikTok or or

Instagram, which is huge, right?
Like there's a lot of Gen.

C food influencers who are
taking inspirations from their

grandmas, but they are also,
there's cultural layering going

on because they are then
translating the, the flavours of

today.
You know, the Sir, the way you

serve it, the garnishing.
Like it, it, there's, there's a

kind of modernization twist.
And I think in a way that's what

I'm saying.
Like it's, it's not like Gen.

Z on drinking.
They're just finding their

version of how it's done.
And isn't, isn't there like also

like an element of kind of like
jump into conclusion for

companies that, you know, they
just want to segment things?

I mean, there are like Gen.
Z bars and there are Gen.

Z festivals and there are, you
know, like that, you know, we

always want to put this, you
know, to stick a name to

something so that it helps the
whatever the strategy.

Because then the moment that a
brand needs to have a

rejuvenation strategy, then we
need who's the younger

generation Gen.
Z.

Yeah.
Who's the next next kind of

generation into the category,
right.

And and thinking of that as a
way to future proof rather than

thinking what is kind of what
what, what is actually happening

in culture and where are the
opportunities coming from rather

than it just being young people.
Yeah, and, and, and what and

what is for you the, this
element?

I mean, I'm talking about this a
lot with, you know, also with

previous guests, the, the Gen.
Z, you know, let's say the

generation versus occasion I
had, I had a talk in bar

convents 2 years ago about this
because the topic was Gen.

Z.
And my personal take was like,

OK, like you are, you know, it's
about consistency for your brand

in a modernized and kind of like
generation update, but you

shouldn't change everything.
But what is your experience in

kind of like updating this
thing?

Because very often I see brands
are kind of alienating their

preview, their current
generation that is drinking.

To pursue and maybe probable
future with the next generation

that may not actually be there.
Yeah, yeah.

And it's, it's actually like, I
think we should look at

commonalities instead of
differences between generations.

That's what's often missed.
Like look at the connection

points between generations
instead of what's what's

different.
And I, I just think like we

would, I was talking with some
colleagues earlier today about

Oasis and you know, Asus, you
know, their, their, their tour

and, and, and the meeting of
generations around Oasis.

You know, it's like Nastali is
such a powerful thing.

It's obviously connecting people
who feel culturally relevant

again, because when they were
listening to races back in the

90s, that was like their moments
of, of, of youth.

But then there's loads of like
Gen.

Z going to the gigs and kind of,
you know, connecting to, to that

culture and previous generations
and, and, and, and that being

meaningful for them.
And there's so many moments of

connection, cultural connection
between generations, that brands

are completely missing because
they're pulling things apart

instead of looking for the
shared meaning.

And should it should it be, you
know, should there be more focus

on, for example, occasion?
Like I'm, I'm thinking of an

example now is imagine like the
pre dinner drinks, you know,

then obviously it changes
through generations, but the

need is always there.
I mean, are you still going for

out for restaurant and then you
may go for a drink before then,

you know, one generation may
want more or less alcohol and

generation may want, you know,
certain kind of things.

But is it so that, you know, we
should flip the the script,

let's say and and say, OK, how
do we update, for example, in an

occasion for different
generations by still being true

to ourselves?
Is is that the right way

forward?
I, I think occasions, I, I, I

really like occasions and
focusing on occasions because I

think, I mean, in a way it's
sort of, it's ethnographic,

isn't it?
It's kind of like what is

actually what people doing?
Like there are occasions in

their lives and how do we, we,
are we invited to that occasion

or not?
Like how can we be a part, play

a part in that occasion?
And I generally think that

that's the right way for any
brand to think because you know,

you're you're, you're either
relevant or not in that

occasion.
Like people don't go around

thinking about your brand,
They're thinking about your

their pre dinner drinks.
That's all for today.

I hope you enjoyed this episode
with Matilda Anderson.

We spoke about many interesting
aspects.

You know the the the four CS
framework, you know ethnographic

research, you know how to
combine qualitative and

quantitative analysis.
We talk about how to observe the

reality, how to observe the
market and understand the

patterns, and how to generate
relevant insights and actionable

insights.
More importantly, if you have a

couple of people that you think
would benefit from listening to

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please share it with them.
Remember to follow or subscribe

to the channel if you want to
get more insights and a deep

dive analysis of this episode,
you can do that at

maffeodrinks.com.
That's all for today, and

remember that brands are built
bottom-up.