026 | Balancing Love & Money: how to build value for all the links of the value chain | Part 2/2 with Maurice Doyle, CEO of Compass Box Whisky (London, UK)

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Maffeo. This is the second part of the conversation with Maurice Doyle. Feel free to listen to episode 25 to get the full picture.

Now, depending on the type of bar, then a €100 one might be less relevant, but a 40 or €50 one might be more relevant. Fundamentally, and this applies to the off trade as well, if we get distribution in a place where our consumers don't go, that's a waste, and it's not going to sell there.

I can imagine, I can imagine. And now that you were talking, I just said the eureka moment, and I realized how we actually met on LinkedIn, that I was reading a post of yours on the importance of the recommended pricing and the pricing strategy because ultimately, that's the make it or break it of the industry. I mean, like it's if you are there at the wrong price, then you're in trouble.

I think I'm unusual, Chris, because I get very excited about pricing. That's not always true for everybody in in the market. And I think pricing is really important because pricing is at a consumer level. It's one of the leading indicators of quality.

if you ask people to look at brands in the category and you ask them to rank them in terms of quality, often they will do it in terms of price. And so we're ultimately, we're selling a dream. We're selling products which aren't necessarily always kind of the cheapest. So we're selling a dream. And so the price sends an important message.

And how you manage price starts at a consumer level relative to your competitors. But then as you go to the value chain is really, really important. Making sure that there's an incentive for people to get behind your product. So going to a distributor level at a retail level at bar level, wholesale level, that there's enough for incentive in there, that you're clear who's making what and that it's consistent between markets as much as it can be. These are really, really important points.

And having that pricing discipline can make a massive difference in terms of what your margin is, and what you can invest in terms of growing the brand. So I do think I'm a little unusual, maybe a little nerdy in terms of being being very obsessed about pricing, just at a consumer level, but how it flows to entire value chain.

I have the same take on that because it's really crucially important. Even in the selling story to the bar, you need to nail it in terms of price ranges because, you know, apart from taste, apart from, you know, food matching or whatever, you know, if the pricing is not right, you know, like, you're never going to address the right person on how much they want to spend. I may not want to to spend, you know, double for a gin and tonic with a certain brand, you know. So if you give me an option that is quality enough, premium enough, but, you know, it lets me express myself, enjoy the taste, but spending the right money, then you made the sale. But if it's off and it costs the double of what like a normal gin and tony with a basic gin brand would be, you know, I'm never going to buy it.

And if there is a difference, then then be clear why there is a difference. You don't have to go down to the lowest common denominator, especially for Compass Box. We're not going to be the cheapest brand of whiskey that's available, but we we offer great value for money. And we think that that an experience in them to to have a penicillin with a Compass Box, Pete Monster is is an amazing experience to have a to have a great cocktail with Orchard House is an amazing experience. And and it can be done in a way that not for every bar, but for certain bars make sense.

And they make money, distributor can make money, and we supply can make money too. That's what you need to look at. I always want people to be able to articulate in terms of the value chain, starting always starts with consumer pricing and work back. And having that discipline is really important.

So also value chains are built bottom up.

Always bottom up, always bottom up. Everything is from the bottom up, Yes, as you always rightly say.

And to follow-up on what you were saying before about consumer understanding where which bars to go to, you know, where the consumers are. What's your take actually on the preference of the bar owner or the bar manager? Let's say because I give you an example of what I mean is that, you know, sometimes here in Prague, I see imagine you take a pub, you know, a normal pub. And of course, they are beer leds. I mean, you go there for beers and food.

I mean, here basically, similarly to to what it is in England, like it's a normal pub where you go for a meal as well. And but then I like to study backbars and that's my fetish. It's not like Excel sheets. It's more like looking at backbars, taking taking pictures and trying to figure out who's whom and who do they work with. And then I like to take a stand on the owner.

I think it's he or she is into rums or they're into scotch or they're into Irish whiskey because there's always you can see it's a little bit like having the password of the laptop, not like you. You see something, you know, they they can't avoid showing it to the people now. And then you see it's a normal pub and then one may have 10 rums and then one Irish whiskey, one scotch, and whatever, one other spirit. And then some others may have like five scotch, one Irish, and one bottle of rum. You know?

And then you can really see where the direction is going there, you And because you automatically know that that person is probably going to upsell that specific category. So so do you think that plays a role? Because in my view, that that is the best indicator of consumers. I I don't want to say I discard consumers in my thinking, but almost I would dare to say that I rely on the the customer more and say Morris is a is a Scotch guy. I'm going to list my Scotch brand there because I know it's going to rotate because he's not interested in rum.

He's not interested in gin, and he will advocate for my brand. What what what's your take on that one?

I I think the role that a bar owner and bar manager, whoever's choosing what brands are stocked, is definitely very important. And you get bars that have biases towards certain categories, depending on the type of brands. Some bars will focus more on the mainstream type brands, which are at certain price points, the ones that are well known that are available everywhere. And then there are other bars that like brands that aren't as well known necessarily, but are in very very high regard. And often they may be independently owned, and when I speak to a lot of bar owners, their bar is their brand.

They're as precious about their brand as we are about ours, and what they're very interested in doing is curating a range of products that represent their brands in the right way. And so, yes, I do think that the bar owner preference is very important. So if I go into a bar and I see some really interesting discovery Irish whiskey, American whiskey, rum, tequila brands, that makes me feel very good about this could be a viable prospect for a Compass Box. If I go into a bar and I see it's it's not being disrespectful because they all do a great job, but more the mainstream brands, and there's none of the kind of eclectic, more, high end discovery brands, then I go, this isn't really a place for us.

And

so understanding that segmentation and the preference of the owner is definitely very important.

And sometimes it's also I mean, you can take different routes on this. It's just important to know what you're doing, you know, decide what not to do Yeah. Or what to do. What I like to do is to take, for example, a cocktail as a reference and then play that game. So, for example, it could be like I'm a big fan of Mezcal Negroni as an example.

Yeah. And that was trade, you know, and it came from the bar. It was in New York at the Nomad's bar, and I ordered a negroni, and the guy behind the bar said, like, have you ever tried mezcal negroni? And at back 10 back then, I had never tried mezcal. So I was like, okay.

That's an easy entry because it can be covered by the bitter and the vermouth. Let's try that. This is the right time to to to try. And then I loved it, and it became my go to to drink. But but sometimes, for example, you may go on kinda like agave forward bars if you're selling a mezcal, or you may go, for example, to an Italian restaurant that is already selling another Negroni, and you could be the choice in upselling Yeah.

That's you know, because that's an easy entry, and probably there's not gonna be 10 Mezcal brands and 10 tequila brands, right?

That's very true. I can walk into a bar and very quickly work out whether this is a right bar for Compass Box as a whole, and it's based on what's on the back bar, the type of products that are stopped. It's based on the type of staff that are there, how knowledgeable the staff are. So Compass Box is a product that people who are who who know whiskey, bartenders who know whiskey, would know about us, would talk knowledgeably. So so the level of experience and capability that bar staff would be a big one.

I think the looking around and and seeing the type of people that are in the bar is also the consumers there is very important. So I probably developed a filter that I can walk into a bar within a minute. I know whether this is right for us or not. The other thing is also by speaking to bartenders, they will also recommend to you in terms of other places that it's another brand that you should be stocked in these other 10 bars in Brooklyn, and that gives you a great kind of feel as well. Yeah, I have developed this radar in a sense of where is right for Compass Box, and luckily the the the universal places that are right is still more than the places we're in so we still got a lot of growth, a lot of growth to go from.

That's cool. That's cool. And I always think about you when I bump into Compass Box on backbars. I'll I'll send you some pictures when I'm out. The other

thing that's really interesting is how do you being on the back bar is necessary, but it's not sufficient. So there are many brands, go into a bar, and we've all been in the bars where they've got like hundreds of bottles in the back bar, and it's almost impossible to work out, kind of who's there and who's not. How do you choose like impossible? How do you how do you choose almost? And so it needs to be more than just the back bar.

So what are the other triggers that really encourage people when they walk to a back bar and see this myriad of brands? How do they choose a compass box? Some people will go in wanting a compass box, but most people, you know, going to a bar will be open. And what can influence them is the standard things that everybody tries to work off is what the bartender recommends. So many people, they drink a particular brand or particular cocktail because they're in one bar and this bartender recommended X.

So how can you how can you encourage the bartender to recommend Compass Box Orchard House rather than something else? We talked about kind of cocktails and cocktail menus. Being on a defined cocktail list, having a recommended cocktail and you being in a recommended cocktail is is massive. Now, everybody's looking for the same thing, so it's very, very competitive, but it's mathematical. If you're in 10% of all the kind of whiskey based cocktails in a particular bar, you probably will have 10% share of the market because it's it's it's so important.

So it's you need to be in the back bar. You can't you can't you can't really play in the outlet unless you're the back bar, but it needs to be more than just the back bar. And getting that relevant presence in bars is is essential.

And actually, yeah, you you you actually read my mind because that that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about the magic trio now of these standards that all companies are going for. And and I feel very often, most of the companies are trying to hunt for the same thing. Like, everybody wants to be in the back bar. Everybody wants to be in the beverage menu. Everybody wants to be in the cocktail menu.

But what I was gonna ask you is that if you believe that those are actually the movers, but I mean, hear you answer like that. So the cocktail menu for you would be the ultimate rotation

The magic points for me, if I was to simplify in bars, would be the bartender recommendation and then cocktail menus. And if I can walk into a bar and I say, know, I'm thinking about having a Rob Roy cocktail or an old fashioned what should I have in it? Or you definitely should have Compass Box. Okay, that's fantastic. Off I go, I was out in the entree in London and observing the weekend, and we had specific cocktails mentioned in the cocktail list.

That is definitely a trigger for success. It's great for awareness and it's great for volume.

Yeah. And do you find resistance on having the brand mentioned on the menu? Because many bars don't want to do that. Now they say, Cal, put Compass Box in it, but don't ask me to to mention it.

There can be resistance, and and being in it is is helpful. Where you can get it being named is even better. We're not one of those mainstream brands that people will see in supermarkets. As I mentioned a few times, we're independent. So actually, it's probably less resistance for people for naming compass box than there might be names that if it was a more mainstream brand owned by one of the bigger players.

And so we try and leverage that as much as we can.

The great point. Mean, like they're they're probably proud to to showcase the brand and especially, I mean, they're probably putting in some some of their margins into them into that.

And it should be profitable for them. And so I want all our partners to profit from the experience of selling Compass Box. I have this big belief that when you go to the value chain, be it a distributor or be it a retailer or a bar owner, there's two things which are really important, Chris. I always try to simplify things to the essentials, and the two most important things, this is the Morris cocktail for how to be successful, is it has to have a combination of love and money. I love that.

So so if you go into a great bar, Dante in New York, for example, then you're only going to be there if they they love you. And so if they respect who you are as a product, if they have a relationship with you, they're not going to stop brands that they don't respect because it would say a really bad thing about your bar. Mhmm. And Balthazar in New York as well is another great example. They will only stock products that are that are relevant with them, but also there has to be an incentive.

So love is really interesting, but it doesn't pay the bills. So there has to be a financial incentive as well. And I think if you can crack their love and money, that's really important. And I think smaller companies can leverage the love part very well. And it doesn't have to be the same blend for both.

So with some brands, can be 80% love, 20% money. But in my experience, it needs to be a bit of both. Because if you're just trading on money, and a lot of the big brands, and I've worked, I've done this myself, and and so I'm not saying anything bad about anybody. If you're just there because of money, then that's a very transactional thing. And then as soon as somebody offers more money, then they will go because there's no inherent love in the relationship.

And so I think that combination of making sure there's love and money involved is is really important. And that's true. That's true from a distributor perspective. Compass Box's biggest market is The US. So we can't sell directly to bars because of three tier system.

So you have to work via distributors, making sure that there's love and money involved at a distributor level. So making sure that the people at the highest level, but especially the sales reps really understand the brand. They're proud to work in the brand. They know the people. They really like the people who are connecting with them.

Our managers over there who work with them, they really like working with us because even the smallest distributor would probably have hundreds of different brands. And so you want them to spend disproportionate amount of time on your brand. But also there should be an incentive. There should be a rationale for them at a distributed level, but also at a sales rep level to sell your brand and understanding what that is, is really important. I was out in New York in February, and I love doing work with.

So going out with sales reps and takes me back to selling directly myself and always insist on doing kind of work with when I'm in a market. And I remember going to this outlet with this really great salesperson, and I was telling the story Compass Box and was selling Compass Box. They signed up to a thousand dollar sale in terms of on Compass Box. And so I was really proud of myself coming out. It probably took me too long.

Was probably too excited to talk to at compass box. So it was there for an hour. And then when we're walking out, I thought that the sales rep would be, would be like hugging me and saying, oh my God, this is amazing. But actually once I realized how they were incentivized, that sale made quite a little difference for them because they were only remunerated and commissioned and the commission rate in the sale on the first sale was relatively small. So actually it didn't make a massive difference to this person.

So he was happy with the sale, but luckily, hopefully because I've sold it in so well, you'll get the kind of repeat orders coming through. Yeah. But really understanding what that incentive is. Why should the distributor salesperson really focus on your brand? They have only so many hours in a day, only so many calls they can make.

Why are they gonna choose compass books rather than choosing to focus on many of the other brands, great brands that are out there. And, and you need to be able to have a strategy for that. And it involves choosing the right partners. It involves managing them in the right way. So that means things like having similar goals, aligning on goals, and then engaging them in the right way.

We have a commerce box, we have well over 1,000 distributor reps who sell our products on our behalf and so we need to make sure that they know our story. They love the brand, they can explain the taste experience. They tasted them all themselves. That's that's really, really important. And I think managing that relationship is is vital.

And that's I mean, that's super, super crucial. I mean, like what you're saying because because most people don't realize that ultimately it's a third party game.

Yep.

Yeah. So most of the people, no matter how enthusiastic you are as a CEO, but if you can translate that to your inner team Yeah. And then to the wider team and then to distributors and then down the line, you know, top down in that in that example rather than bottom up. But then it it has to re come back to you bottom up because otherwise it doesn't translate. And and what you say about incentive is is really important.

I give you an example of I've never worked in the telecommunications, but I think I know the reason why there is an issue in that industry. And I give you an example. Like, usually, what happens is that sometimes I want to change provider, you know, with, you know, my phone my phone operator. And and you realize I called them and I said, like, you know, this is too expensive, you know, like, need to spend less. So what can can you give me an offer?

Because there's other providers that are cheaper than you. And they say, no. Can't do anything. So then what I do is that I go to the other operator and then I go back to that store and all of a sudden there's a huge offer, you know, like a 50% off. And this has happened to me here in Prague, in Rome.

You know? It's not a country specific thing. It's a it's a wider thing. And then it it it got me puzzled now because I felt like, how stupid is that? You know?

Why do I have to change number, change SIM card, you know, and do all these games now? And then I thought of the reason. And I think the reason is that they are not incentivized on retention, but they're incentivized on new acquisitions. Yep. So if you stole a consumer from the competition, you get a bonus.

But if you, you know, if you retain for longer time the same user, you don't get a bonus. Yeah. So there there is like this kind of like sick routine and it's all about KPIs. It's all about setting the right KPIs and and we tend to think and we we discussed that also earlier about other topics that there is a tendency in any industry. This is not only a drinks industry thing to to focus on measuring what we can measure rather than what we should measure.

Yeah.

And then we set up the wrong behaviors by being able to do the same thing. I think we were discussing that on the demographics. Now when you do the target targeting on consumers and you do it on demographics because it's easier and because Facebook, you know, allows you to do that on demographics that allow you to do that on peated versus non peated whiskey preference. I wish that we could all do that, But or like, you know, other preferences, but it's it's based on age, where you live, what job you do, what other things you're interested in, and and it drives the wrong behavior. So I think it it goes back to another point that I wanted to raise.

That is when you talk about the the bartender recommendation that I know that that is one of the the biggest driver. But I think listening to you, probably the the way to nail it should be on rather than, you know, asking just to to recommend the brand, it should be about recommend the brand to this type of people that are looking for this type

of product.

There's so many brands out there that you need to be able to actually justify. And if you know somebody is looking for a peated whiskey, then I want you to recommend this brand. If somebody is looking for rum but wants to have an entry into whiskey because his friend is drinking whiskey but he or she doesn't know how to drink whiskey, you know, then recommend this to transition them into the category kind of thing. And because sometimes there's a black and white approach on I go on trade visits with customers or brand owners and it's like, they didn't recommend our brand. And I was like, yeah, I mean, like, you know, they couldn't recommend our brand.

I mean, unless unless they read my mind, they couldn't recommend our brand. So there is also like a lot of thinking to be done from our side. Right?

100%. That's 100% true. And the point about KPIs and how that influences behavior is massively important. From experience, and especially on a small brand, the danger is you can measure things which are precise, but they may be the wrong things to measure and incentivise on. For small brands, often it's better to measure things which you can measure directionally, but maybe not precisely, but they're the right things.

It's better to, in my experience, this is is learned through failure as much as success, Chris, it's better to measure what's right, even if it's directionally than measure precisely what's wrong.

And 100%. I will ask you to steal that quote in some posts because this is really, really crucially important. Also like one thought that I want to share with you and the listeners that there is a there is a podcast I listen to. It used to be called the state of demand gen. Now it's called revenue vital by Chris Walker.

I think I recommended that to you in some previous chats we had. And and one thing they always stress is the attribution mirage, they call it. And I love that because because what they've done, for example, on their website, they ask a free text question like, how did you hear about us? But it's not a drip down menu. It's it's an open it's an open question.

You know, you can say Morris or, you know, it doesn't say, like, recommended by whom and so on. It's just like Morris. And and what they then put next to each other, they they they take the attribution software versus the reality. It's crazy and it's mind blowing how full that is because imagine this, you know, like, I may have heard about you by a friend of mine, but then what do I do? Like, maybe I don't remember your surname or whatever.

I I either go on LinkedIn or I go on Google or I go on Instagram because you liked a post of his. So then I click on your profile from Instagram. So you would get like, oh, I met Chris through Instagram or I met Chris through Google. But in reality, it was recommended to me by a friend of mine over dinner. You know?

So if you ask me the reality, I would say name surname of my friend that recommended you. But if you check only the software, it would be like Instagram, Google, or whatever that is. And it's so it it I mean, this is exactly what you are saying now. That is, like, better to to focus on the trajectory, on the direction, on what you more or less want to measure rather than, you know, be a 100% proof and do quantitative analysis and and and this kind of stuff. Because at at the end of the day, you know, you have to gut trust your gut feeling substantiated by some sort of data, but it could even be like five bartenders that that you spoke to.

Definitely agree with with all of that. Successful brands are built on an an idea, and it's it's it's likely to be much more qualitative than quantitative, which is exactly what you're saying. So I think that's that's really insightful.

Yeah. One last question I've got is I was talking to Alex Fritza, like, from the Barl Antiquario That is a guest in another of of the podcast. So you really listen to that. And and, for example, he was mentioning also, the power of having a brand on the well, on the speed rail, however, you know, people call it, that they said, like, his stake was that sometimes that one can be much more powerful actually than a cocktail menu, for example, because for those sitting at the bar, I mean, they keep seeing these bots in front of their eyes all all the time. I acknowledge the fact that being in the speed rail and in the well, I mean, it's a different ballgame in terms of margins and in terms of the type of brand that could afford that.

Let's put it that way. So what's your take from your experience about well products?

I can see Well is definitely being relevant for many brands at a particular price point. It's not really a key driver for us at Compass Box, for the reasons you said really. That doesn't mean it's not relevant for other brands, and it can be a very interesting way of driving volume in a bar in terms of yeah, so but it's not really relevant for us.

So That's what I thought. And especially now, I mean, nowadays, one of the thought that I had in that conversation was also about the raising trends of pre batching. Very often nowadays, when I go out in Prague, I don't actually see the bartender making the drink. I mean, they make it, but it's basically pre batch because they've done it in the afternoon or, you know, the previous day and so on. In that sense, like, the cocktail is actually making a huge a huge difference.

So that's a that's a fantastic point.

That's definitely a trend that would that we see. And now on Compass Books, we want to inspire people to be able to express their individuality, and we're known as a creative brand. But creative doesn't have to be complex. You can still be creative and simple, and making it as simple as possible for bartenders to make delicious cocktails and and serve to people. Your cocktail doesn't have to take fifteen minutes to crates.

And one of the interesting things about my role is I get to travel a lot round great bars. And what's happening in top end bars in in New York, in a Prague, in London, is very similar and actually is more similar to what's happening than other like a basic pub in London, for example, being able to share what's happening with people bartenders in Prague are really interesting in terms of what's happening in the top bars in London, or the top bars in New York, and sharing that information and sharing that insight, because it's the same type of consumer is is really important at that type of level Compass Box is very relevant, very interesting with those types of bars and so talking to them about what we're doing this amazing thing in this bar in in Los Angeles. And so therefore, it might be something you consider to drive business for you and your bar in Sydney. Those type of conversations are typically very well received.

So sharing best practices, let's say, sharing what works and what doesn't work. Because sometimes I feel that when when companies have this drink strategy, they are very much created in advertising agencies and branding agency rather than bottom up from the bar. So it's true that you want to have a direction to consistently building the brand at global level, you know, like discussing like the global versus local kind of like adaptations. But but very often there may be something that actually works in certain places and may not be your target drink that that you thought of. You thought that you would push an old fashioned, but then you realize that the highball would be a much better solution for for that specific brand, for example.

That's really true. Most of the bartenders that that we work with, they're super talented, very, very creative. And often they can come up with different cocktails, different drink expressions, which are really interesting, and we can kind of share that great practice themselves. It's not about being prescriptive. Nothing in Compass Box at a consumer level or a bartender level is about being prescriptive, I'm encouraging that creativity.

And then sharing that creativity is something which is really important to what we do.

And the very last question, then I don't want to steal more of your time, but

I'm enjoying this. I'm really enjoying this.

It's great. Could go on forever.

It could

be in one of those Joe Rogan kind of episodes with, like, three three hours going back to pricing, not like the pricing issue. So imagine, like, you want to be in the cocktail menu, but the bar the bar owner is saying, like, yeah, it doesn't really add up from a from a food cost, drinks cost kind of perspective. No? So what are what are the levers that we can play in your opinion trying to bring them on board in in making that happen?

So first of all, it's about having that conversation to understand what's important to them. So understanding what kind of margin they're looking for from their cocktails, but but also exploring with them in terms of and testing with them what's possible in terms of the price of the cocktail in terms of so you can easily pay $20.25 dollars in top bars in in The US for a delicious cocktail. At those type of price points, then we can be relevant. So for me, you do a cocktail that's on your cocktail menu that's got Compass Box, says something about the outlet. It says something that we're not a mainstream brand.

We're an independent whiskey maker. We're known for our delicious transparent liquids. And so it says something. It their press their press is about their brand. This helps them build their brand and the economics based on the pricing in terms of the cocktail and their expected gross margin can work.

It might not work for everybody, but it absolutely can work. And so the one that we focus most on and it works at the price point that is at is Orchard House. Orchard House is the one that we're really focusing on as being our main cocktail is play, not for every bar, but for many bars the economics work, the taste profile works everywhere, and what it says about their brand works very positively as well. So we normally work with them and then then test and learn, see how it works. I was in Swift.

It's a great bar in terms of London in the top 50 bars, they got an incredible Orchard House cocktail on their menu that they created. And, yeah, it's it seems to be working well for them. It's working well for us. It's really interesting for for their consumers. And and so it works at at all levels.

And I think I think also, like, building on what you're saying, because it it made me think It's also, like, about being humble in kinda, like, putting the foot in the door Yeah. There because imagine, like, they've got five whiskey cocktails. You know? Okay. Being the one that you know, don't be in the in the penicillin or old fashioned kind of drink.

Like, being the one that is a little bit more daring, but, you know, you know it's not gonna sell that well, but at least you've put a foot in the door into that menu kind of thing. Or or maybe just like play with the liquid. Like, I mean, like put a little bit less, you know, go for an ounce instead of two ounces so that it gives a little bit of of an edge, you know. For example, sometimes I like to have a boulevardier, but I make it with a scotch or sometimes like I I do with bourbon, but then I ask them to to put a little dash of of a peat pitted LA. And I know I need to pay for that, you know, but that's that's my preference.

But Exactly. But then if you could just like add a dash of something to make it pitted, to make it smoky, to make it, you know, flavorful, you know, doesn't have to be, you know, two ounces of a pitted whiskey kind of thing. Also, another point that made you made me reflect on is that when you have that kind of conversation, like when you said about pushing the boundaries now, where where can you draw the line kind of thing is also on the sometimes that, you know, you need to bring the conversation in a more factual to a more factual level. Because sometimes they're like, no. Your brand is too expensive.

Sorry. I can't no. It's never gonna work in a cocktail menu. And then all of a sudden, it's like just selling cocktails for $30. So I don't think there's a big issue with that.

Know? Exactly. We're not talking about a, you know, a $10 Margherita kind of thing. And but also it's just like, yeah, but let's go through it. You know?

What other things can you, you know, cut corners on to allow this brand to enter? Maybe you can play on a on a different kind of mixer or on a different kind of other products. Or maybe there is another product that makes the drink more expensive that is actually not my brand. So so let's actually talk facts. This is what I like to to discuss.

For example, when when we talk about, you know, ask the bar to sell more. No. And it's like, Okay, but make it tangible. So they're selling, I don't know, half a bottle and they half a bottle per week. Let's say, try to find a way to finish that bottle per week.

You know, don't just can you sell more? I was like, what does it mean? Know, but if you know they will say no, but then if you maybe bring the conversation to a case like 12 serves on a US kind of seven fifty ml thing like 12 to 13 drinks for a bottle. You know, they if they serve half of a bottle, let's call it like six. So there's one one drink per night is like, can you make two drinks per night?

Then all of a sudden one bottle is sold. So obviously I'm pushing it to the extreme. Now it's not that simple. But if you have that kind of conversation, you bring it to a to a level in which they can actually say yes or no. But otherwise it just like, oh, please, my boss wants wants you to increase sales.

You know, what can you do? Can you help me? And what they'll do, they'll just place an order for three bottles because they love you, going back to the love and money. Mhmm. And then all of a sudden, we'll just collect dust on the shelf.

I think that's really important. And I think it is simple, but it should be simple. In the spirits industry, we can get obsessed about our nine liter cases, which obviously don't exist in real life. Our physical cases, no consumers drink cases, they don't even drink. Thankfully, they drink bottles, they drink cocktails, they drink beer, they drink one unit at a time.

Yeah, and so that's what we focus in them. If we can get rather than each bar serving, selling one Compass Box tonight to say selling two, it's far mean, are still spirit brands are still built bar by bar, and it's much better getting a healthy velocity in one bar than trying to overextend distribution and go to 10 bars straight away. It may be that the sales level is exactly the same, but if you're if you go from that one one measure a night to two measures to three measures to four measures in what then word will start spreading. And then organically, you will you will go distribution because people will know, oh my god, that bar, Compass Box, Orchard House is selling, it's on fire. And I want to have some of that action.

And that's the much, much better way of doing it. And I think focusing on drink by drink, bar by bar is still the classic way in terms of that brands are built and and it is focusing on what's happening in the market in the real world. It's building brands from the bottom up. It's absolutely that's still the essential behind making craft spirit brands successful.

Nice. Nice. I would love to continue more, but I I think this is a this is a great wrap up of the of the of this session. We can continue offline. We can make it a weekly thing.

We can we can make it Fantastic.

I'm in, Chris. I'm in. We need to go back to that bar where those guys come together every week.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll and we'll and we'll sit at the chair of the old man and and wait for him for him to

get my job.

Fantastic. So thanks a lot, Maurice, for your time. I mean, I I know how busy you are and I know how privileged I am firstly and and all the all the listeners are to to listen to to you. And I want to leave some space for for you to, you know, to plug in, you know, how can people reach out to you and to to Compass Box and to and to what you do.

Great. Well, Compass Box, we have our, website in terms of where people can contact us. Hopefully, we're available in many great bars around the world. I am available in terms of LinkedIn. That's probably the best way for people to connect with me.

But, yeah, Chris, I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's always good to talk about how brands are built because you can step back and really focus on the fundamentals. It's very easy to get focused in too much details and not not stepping back. So this has been this has been really helpful. We're very fortunate in the Compass Box.

We work with great people, great bar owners, great distributors. So it's a real pleasure to talk about what we do and share our story. And so I'm always very keen of any opportunity to be able to to do so. So I'm available and the entire CommodesBox team is available to to share our story in in the best way possible.

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Maurice.

Chris, thank you.

That's all for today. Remember that this is a two part episode. So listen to episode 25 as well. If you enjoyed it, please rate it and share it with friends. And come back next week for more insights about building brands from the bottom up.