025 | Starting from the Taste Profile: when liquids transcend categories and solve a customer's need. | Part 1/2 with Maurice Doyle, CEO of Compass Box Whisky (London, UK)

Welcome to the Mafeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mafeo.
This is the first part of the

chat with Maurice Doyle.
He's the CEO of Compass Box

Whiskey.
He's a coach and brings 3

decades of industry experience,
having held senior leadership

roles at Bacardi, William Grants
and Sons and Santori.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Hi, Maurice.

How you doing?
Hi Chris.

I'm doing really well.
It's great to be with you,

absolutely.
And thanks.

Thanks for your time.
I know how, how busy you are.

So this is really a gift from
you.

Let's talk about how to build
brands from the bottom up

together.
So we met just as short intro,

we met in Club Bows in the in
the glory days of Club Bows in

Glory days 2021 I think it was.
And since then, we never met in

person, but we had a lot of
conversation, a lot of video

chats.
Feel like we know each other

very well, Chris.
It's gonna tell people that I

know you like when your name
pops up, then it's like, oh, you

know, Maurice and like, yeah,
and and I also feel like we

actually never met in person.
But it's very funny how how we

can build digital human
relationships.

So let's talk about you.
I mean you've got a huge

experience from.
So my question will not be

necessarily about your current
situation and you know your

current setup, but about your
philosophy of building brands

and what you've seen working,
what you've seen not working as

well with the issues with the
industry and and how to fix

them.
And one of my first things that

I that I like to talk about is
how brands create demand.

I've been through a lot of
meetings and there's always this

thing like let's build brand
awareness and I'm a little bit

allergic to the to that word in,
in that sense because it feels

very.
So what's your take on building

brand demand?
For me, Chris, it starts off

with an understanding of what is
the problem that you're trying

to solve and for who.
So even before you're kind of

creating brand awareness, when
you're thinking about creating

your brand, it's just better
being really clear about what

the problem is and who has it.
And those problems don't

necessarily have to be big as
alcohol brands.

We're not trying to create World
Peace or cure world hunger.

But, but there should be
something that you've identified

that it was a problem and you
believe that what you're

offering the world can solve it.
That is a starting point for me

because if you're not clear on
what's that problem and if

you're not clear about what
you're doing to solve it, then

creating awareness by itself is
never going to work because it's

creating awareness of what.
And so I think you have to do

that discipline to work to begin
with.

And people often ask me, well,
how do you do that?

Do you look at an Excel
spreadsheet, or does that give

you what the problem is?
Honestly, it's just really

getting out there and connecting
with people, talking to people,

talking to bar owners, people
who work in bars, talking to

consumers, identifying the
problem and marketing.

The drinks world is a blend of
art and science.

And so it can be just a
qualitative view that you have

to begin with, but hopefully
once you've identified what the

problem is and then if you can
check in with people and saying,

well, we think there is this
issue and we think we can solve

it in this way.
So a good example which I can

claim no credit for is I'm CEO
of Compass Box.

And when the founder and our
founder John Glazer created

Compass Box way back in the year
2000.

The world of Scotch whiskey was
a quite a traditional place,

quite a conservative place with
a small city, quite masculine,

quite rules orientated.
There's kind of two or three big

players who really kind of
controlled everything.

I mean, it wasn't a very
dynamic, exciting category.

It delivered for many people,
but there was a group of people

that were merging the time that
wanted more.

And so John identified that
there was a problem, that it

wasn't interesting enough.
There wasn't enough relevance

there for these people who want
to discover more about Scotch

whiskey.
So he identified that problem.

He identified the type.
It's not a problem for

everybody, but there's a small
niche that have the problem.

And so the mission that he
created the brand was to fix

that problem.
And the mission that we have

today is still a mission that we
had then, which was to inspire

moments of joy by making the
world of Scotch whiskey more

interesting place.
So rather than it being a little

bit bland, a little bit
conservative, a little bit rule

based, let's let's be
transparent, let's be dynamic,

let's break some rules, let's do
things differently.

So.
So I do think there is a really

important step even before you
get to brand awareness in terms

of just being really clear what
the problem is and for whom and

for whom, people often forget
because most brands shouldn't be

for everybody, most brands
should be for a small group of

people.
It's better to.

Really connect with a small
group of people than to be

vanilla for for everybody.
And I think especially that

small brands, spirit brands,
beverage brands that are growing

in the entree, it's been really,
really clear who your tribe is

and who's not.
And I remember in the early days

of Hendricks Gin, we used to
play off that because we used to

say it's not for everybody.
In fact, we put something on our

past that this is going to be
for 1%, only 1% of gin drinkers.

So for those more handful of
people.

Yes, for most gin drinkers, you
got some amazing brands that

you're happy with.
But there's some people out

there that want more and it's
those people that we're

targeting.
I mean, I think that's that's

really important to be very
clear what the problem is, be

very clear in terms of who, who
has the problem on who you're

connecting with and be very
clear to in terms of how you can

solve the problem.
And there has to be something

different about what you're
offering to what's already out

there.
Most of the things we do, it's

not going to be something that's
kind of life changing, but there

needs to be something different.
So when you're in a bar and

you're explaining why you should
drink Morris Gin or or Chris

Vermouth, then there has to be
something different about those

brands from a product point of
view or from an imagery point of

view that's relevant because if
you're just offering what's

already out there, why is
anybody going to change?

Why is that?
Bar owner going to stock your

brand.
Why is a consumer going to drink

your brand?
So there has to be something

different about what you do.
And I think you need to have a

philosophy about how you're
going to do it.

And that's about strategy.
It's about choosing the things

that you're going to do and even
more importantly, the things

that you're not going to do.
For me, strategy is all about

the choices that you decide that
you're not going to make, not

going to do.
And typically in the early days

of a brand, you have very
limited resources.

So it's much, much better to do
one or two things brilliantly

and do them consistently well
over time than trying to do too

many things and do them very
averagely.

So I love that.
For me, that's the beginning

stages of how you create a
brand, even before you get to

how you drive brand awareness.
And I agree with you, Brand

awareness by itself is nothing.
But that, for me is always the

first step when I when I look at
creating interesting beverage

brands.
And I by being significantly

older than than you are, I've
learned about the things that

I'm passionate about and the
things I'm less passionate

about.
And there's two things I'm

passionate about.
One is about on people's side

growing people.
But the other things I really

love is taking growing, turning
either non existing brands or

small brands into something
that's got momentum and growing.

I really admire those people
that managed kind of the huge

brands and deliver kind of 1%
gains every year.

And a good year is a + 1 and a
bad year is -1.

I don't have the mentality I
find that not particularly

exciting, but crafting something
new and different, that's what I

love.
That's what gets me out of bed

in the morning.
Nice, nice.

I think you really nailed it
there on on the fact.

Remember, I used to hate gin.
I mean, I couldn't drink gin.

I had a bit of any an issue on
one night and one of those kind

of categories that you say, no,
that that Saturday night was the

wrong night for gin.
And I I didn't drink it for, I

don't know, I think like 10
years.

And then a friend of mine came
to visit me in Prague and she

brought me a gift and it was a
bottle of Hendricks.

I said, oh, that's cool, what's
that?

And she said it's gin.
And it's like, oh, sorry, like I

don't drink gin and she's like,
okay, that's for you then,

because this is the gene for non
gene drinkers.

And the crazy thing was I mean
she was not in marketing but she

explained it to me like if she
was working for the company and

and she said look let's go and I
I let you try this let's go and

buy a cucumber.
So we went to the corner shop.

We bought a cucumber.
She made a gin and Sonic for me

and I said like but how you know
do people know about about this

like that is supposed to be
served with a cucumber and she

said like you will be impressed.
So we we then went for dinner,

we went for a cocktail and we
went to a couple of cocktail

bars and they both two or three
of them, they served it with

cucumber.
And I was shocked.

Rich, literally.
I mean I was then back then was

I was working in marketing for
Peroni and since then I started

drinking.
And then all of my friends, you

know, I I used to tell the
exactly the same story, which

was also very simple for me
because it was on the back label

and there was a small kind of
like a neck hanger on that

exactly saying like this is for
a small handful of people and so

on.
And it got me thinking.

And then I also read the book by
Steven Grass Brand, Mysterism.

And I met you and I met a lot of
people working for the company

and it really inspired me
because it's about niching down

and really going into a small
need for someone where you want

to recruit people in the
category.

And I guess, I mean I'm not very
familiar with Compass Box from a

brand perspective, but it feels
like it's bringing people to the

Scotch category.
You know, people that wouldn't

consider Scotch whiskey.
This is how I see it from the

outside.
You know it's for for non

regular Scotch drinkers.
It's true, it's it's true.

And I think both Hendrix and
Compass Box, I think a really

good examples of brands being
built from the bottom up.

I wasn't there at the very early
stages of creating Hendrickson,

as many other people that can
that should be credited for

that.
It was a disruptor in the

category, but a consistent
disruptor at the time.

Every gin brand was kind of a
London gin brand, distilled in

England in blue bottles or green
bottles, drunk if you were very

lucky, with a slice of lime,
mostly with a slice of lemon,

all priced at a certain level.
And then Hendrix comes in at

least 50% higher than any other
gin brand in a dark bottle that

hadn't been seen before in the
world of gin.

And then the whole idea of kind
of insisting that it had to be

with cucumbers, several
cucumbers, and consistently

doing that was inspired.
And then just doing the same

thing over and over and over and
over again and.

The brand was created just going
to before the the turn of the

Millennium, and it took probably
10 years for people to really

start noticing it.
And what happened was we were

telling a story, but the great
thing is other people, like your

friends started telling a story
for us.

And alcohol is a social, it's a
human category, high interest

category, people if there's a
brand, that really resonates

with them.
They will be very keen to

recommend it to their friends.
And so once you can leverage

that power of advocacy as we
talk and come to trade, then

that's really, really powerful.
But I think the simplicity and

the consistency of the message
and being a disruptor, but being

consistent and how you're
disrupting the category was

really important from a Hendrix
perspective.

And we had this.
I don't have to have it still

now, but we had this litmus test
on Hendrix, which is like the

golden rule if.
Any of these other gym brands

has done this type of activity
before.

We can't do it in Hendricks.
We have to do something

different.
So when we started developing

the brand in airports, it was
what can we do that's that's

different.
So everybody was offering a gift

pack with glasses, and there was
a reason why people liked that,

but we wanted to do it in a
different way and so we came up

with these wonderful kind of
teacups and tea sauces, which

are.
Full of this kind of Victorian

or imagery, and they're very,
very peculiar, but in a kind of

joyful way.
And then they became amazing

collectibles.
And that was something that we

were doing that was just
different.

We had people dressed up in
Victorian outfits and cycling

around airports and penny
fithing bicycles and doing some

weird stuff that just got people
talking about brand.

Absolutely.
We were very consistent about

that.
So that's that's the magic of

the the Hendrix story and all
kinds of people you created and

those people that have been
working on the brand since I

left and it's still a benchmark
for many, for many competitors.

And you're right when you said,
when you said it took ten years

because there was exactly 2010
when I when I heard that story.

And that's another of these
important points about you know

there's no such thing as an
overnight success because people

think like OK, they launched
this brand, you know no matter

if it's Hendricks or another
one, but it's just like you, you

tend to think it was OK like
couple of years ago.

I mean the apparel they can
party like all these brands are

you know taking ages to to
actually develop and get

mainstream because they may be
super strong in a handful of

markets and but not everywhere.
And then some other countries

are lagging behind into the the
development of the brand.

So usually there's there's
always like this kind of like

handful of markets that are
making the difference and they

make what like eighty 8590% of
the sales initially.

But that's how how that goes and
and building on that you were

you were mentioning earlier
consumers now and let's say my

take on consumer because when
whenever I'm in meetings and and

they talk about all this is our
target consumer and the target

persona and so on.
In the past there was a tendency

to to cluster them by whatever
like male, female, whatever, 20

to 40, a B + 1 blah blah, blah
and and and so on living in

cities urbanized and so forth.
Now and I also got a little bit

allergic to that one because for
me it's more about people with a

certain need because I always
give the example.

I mean you can see me at the at
the embassy of Italy here in

Czech Republic and I'm wearing a
suit and I'm and I'm drinking

Rancho Gorta or Prosecco or
champagne.

And then you see me the day
after in a pub with a T-shirt

and shorts and and having 5
beers and A and a sausage and

it's still the same consumer.
So it depends on the on the

occasion that I'm in and I may
or sometimes I may want to.

I mean, I'm in a groaning type
of person, but then if I'm out

with my with my wife and she
drinks Brits, I may go for a

spritz with her.
You know, I don't want to have

any grony while she's having a
spritz, for example.

So I become a spritz type of
person, which I'm usually not.

So when you talk about consumers
and how to understand consumers,

what is your take and how do you
explain that to to your team and

to people?
I also have the same kind of

visceral reaction when I see a
brand's target consumer

described in demographic terms,
because it's ridiculous and even

more.
And people say are targeting

like millennials in terms of
broad candidates, Gen.

Z, it's absolutely ridiculous.
A 25 year old male could still

be a student, could be married
with three children.

It's such a poor way of
targeting consumers.

And what's much more relevant
for me is the attitude and more

kind of psychographic way of
looking at consumers.

So what is it that people?
Are looking for.

So we describe our target in
terms of modern Scotch

appreciators.
And they can be men and men and

women.
They can be younger.

They can be older all over the
legally drinking age of course.

But it's not about demographics.
Absolutely isn't about

demographics.
It's about having that attitude.

And then you're right in terms
of then the occasion can make a

can make a big difference.
I drink Guinness in bars in a

couple of locations, mostly when
I'm back home in Highland.

And mostly with a certain group
of friends.

And yet it's a brand where where
I'd only drink it in that

occasion.
And so my attitude is still the

same to brands and to Guinness.
I'm very positive towards

Guinness, but it's the occasion,
these friends, these particular

bars, and my default is like a
default trigger.

When I'm there, I almost don't
consider anything else.

It's just that's what I drink.
And so I think using the

combination of attitude and
occasion is much more relevant.

Than demographics marketers can
often think about kind of

consumers.
They're people them to think of

them as people and connect with
them as people, speak to them as

as people.
Don't look at reports.

If you understanding of your
target market comes from reading

reports, then you've failed.
You have to get out there.

I have this this expression
which I probably overuse Chris,

which is nothing magical ever
happens from behind the desk.

I remember that.
And so it's really important to

get out there and connect in the
real world, whether you're in

commercial, you have to do that.
And then the building

relationships, whether in
marketing, you have to do that.

And sometimes people think it's,
well, am I being demeaning to

people who are just doing it,
who are doing a desk job?

And it's not that at all.
I've done jobs which are

primarily kind of desk jobs, but
the magic happens often when

you're connecting with somebody
by a coffee machine or when

you're out in a bar yourself and
you don't have to be in

marketing.
You're speaking to somebody,

speaking to a bar owner.
And you get as amazing insight

about something which is
happening, a trend that's begin

to happen and that's those are
the magical moments that can

really make a difference.
And they they don't happen from

reading reports.
They don't happen typically from

writing and reading 100 emails a
day.

They happen by connecting with
the real world.

Absolutely.
I think your your quote goes in

goes well in tandem with my
quote when I say that the future

of insights is sitting at the
bar.

It's.
Where magic happens because

people a it's obviously kind of
key point to consumption, but

it's people are more open,
they're open to connecting with

people.
It's social media before social

media ever happens.
And so it's a brilliant spot in

terms of just seeing what's
happening, absolutely.

And I love the concept of pubs.
I remember since I I started

going to to to England when I
was when I was 15, it was my

first time in England.
And then I I discovered the pub

and of course at that time I
couldn't drink yet but but I I

was still ordering my half a
pint of Coke.

And you know, while my friends
were you know were hosting me

and you know having beer and I
and I could see the dynamics

that were totally different from
from Italy because I mean Italy

that that's where the first pubs
in Italy started but they were

basically a copy.
It was just like I don't know

like an like a coffee like an
espresso house in London or the

equivalent.
You know you bring something

that works in another country
now and and what I love about

that was the the ability to
speak and talk to different

people at the bar you know with
the all sort of different kind

of backgrounds and so on.
And and since moving here to

Prague, one of my favorite
things and if you ever in

Prague, I'll I'll take you to
one of those places.

And I quoted.
There are this really super old

school pubs that they call
hospital here.

And and what's incredible is
that you see at the same table

every day of the week.
Like it could be a Tuesday night

at 5:00 or Thursday night at six
or whatever that is.

There is a table booked by a
random group of people, but

they're always the same people
and they drink.

They're not friends, they drink
together, because what unites

them is that drinking occasion.
And you can see.

And when you browse around and
you ask them what they do, you

see a doctor, a politician, a
plumber, an electrician, a

teacher, a painter.
They all sit at the table.

They talk to each other over
beer and over, you know, a

couple of sausages or goulash or
whatever that is.

And what's incredible for me, I
still remember I was shocked.

I always tell this story that it
was a that was actually a

Tuesday night, that I think it
was like 6:00 PM We went at 5

drinking after work with some
friends, and I sat at this table

and was empty.
And then this old man comes in

and he starts being checked to
me with my broken check.

And I understand that he wants
to see it where I'm sitting and

I understand if that he asked if
if that's free.

He actually wanted me to free
free it for you.

And then I said, yeah, sure, you
can sit here.

They were like 3 chairs next to
me, empty.

And he was like, no, you you
don't understand.

You know, since 1975, every
Tuesday at 6:00 PM or five,

whatever there was, I'm sitting
here on your chair.

So that is my chair.
And then I was just like, I mean

I wanted to genuflect and say
like a respect to this, to this

man, this is, this is loyalty,
this is consistency, this is.

And he, he was coming from
outside of Prague by train and

then he would catch the last
train back to the hometown every

single.
And he must have been, I don't

know like 70 or something like
that.

So it was, it was super
interesting for me because these

kind of things, you only get
them, as you say, not sitting at

your desk, you know, there's
nothing wrong with that.

But you need to go out and meet
this kind of people and learn

this kind of stories because
otherwise you will never

understand the beauty of entree.
And that's what I love about the

entree and and and talking about
the occasion like bridging on

this.
What would you say like for

example, I'm, I'm relatively new
to the world of Scotch and and

I'm always, let's say puzzled or
I have different views on what's

what's the Scotch drink for for
cocktails and what's one for,

you know, seeping needs and so
on.

Do you think that let's say
certain brands, how does that

work for you?
Like is it about certain brands?

Is it about certain aging, you
know, sort of like a 15 year old

or a 12 year old or a 8 year
old?

What would you recommend and
what what's your take on that?

We definitely don't think it's
it's black or white, one of the

key tenants of what we believe
it at Compass Boxes.

There are no rules and so if you
enjoy.

You a whiskey and you enjoy your
compass box in a cocktail.

Brilliant, neat brilliant
however you want to do it.

One of my favorite expressions
and and compass box was the

first bottle I acquired about 15
years ago was was hedonism which

is a beautiful blended grain,
rich, indulgent.

Now what I do is I I keep it in
the freezer and so I I serve it

in terms of as a as a dessert
and it's like a liquid creme

brulee.
It's absolutely stunning.

And that's how I serve my head.
And if that's how you want to do

it, then that's great.
There are no rules.

I think that Scotch whiskey has
been very traditionally focused

on neat consumption, one
particular target, one

particular type of consumption,
and I think that's limited.

And when I look at other classes
of whiskey, in terms of Irish

whiskey, American whiskey,
they're more progressive and a

bit more open.
One of the things I think that

manufacturers and suppliers get
wrong is they're very tightly

focused on their category and
consumers don't necessarily

think like that.
So more and more consumers are

promiscuous across categories
and they're interested in brands

which are relevant to them And
so that's a big thing.

With Compass Box we offer an
exploration of course to range

of different tastes and
profiles.

Them in whiskey and they're all
they've all got the common

factor that they're delicious
and then people drink them in

different ways but it's really
up to them we can suggest ways

we can suggest and then so if
you're having I know you like as

well as as well as in the grown,
you like an oldfashioned well

comas Box spice tree for me is a
beautiful kind of base for a

oldfashioned if I'm having a
highball and then so which is a

very simple cocktail in the very
commas.

I use Orchard House cuz very
fresh, very fruity.

It's like drinking summer and
then there were lots of ice and

soda water.
It's perfect.

So we've got different
expressions that probably lean

more towards different types of
consumption, but however people

want to drink it, then that's
absolutely fine.

That's interesting.
And how would you, let's say,

match that to what we were
discussing before now?

Because sometimes I'm also
changing opinions on, you know,

like focusing on a target,
occasional target drink,

sometimes like to pick your own
drink.

Like if you take, I don't know,
like one throw with Margarita or

come party with the negroni, you
know, that has been pushing that

for ages.
And so, so let's say I feel that

that gives a hook that gives the
foot in the door to sparkle the

conversation, so to say.
And then you, you still need to

allow freedom, right?
But where, where can you draw

the line in not being a Jack of
all trades kind of thing?

Because when you talk about
Compass Box, you have the luxury

of having a wide range so you
can have certain certain

expressions that are more
soothing, certain occasion kind

of thing.
But but what would you recommend

for example, to a brand owner
that is starting with one brand

and 1S KU and they want to be
different, so they want to have

that kind of like hook in the
conversation and where'd you

draw the line on on that one?
So how we do it?

First, how I do it on on Compass
boxes I if somebody new I give

them a a short 10 to 15 second
summary of what we are as

compass box and that's basically
independent whiskey makers.

We we're very creative we're
very transparent we're

independent.
That's what we do.

And then I asked them what they
like.

So what what do you like to
drink?

What do you like to eat?
And then you you get.

You get cues from that.
So I've got some friends who

swear they're absolutely don't
drink Scotch whiskey.

It's not for them, but they're
bourbon drinkers, and so if I

know they're bourbon drinkers,
then that gives me a clue.

Because mentioning hedonism,
which is our blends of grain for

many people, has got flavor
profiles very similar to

bourbon.
And so if they're a bourbon

drinker, then I would suggest
that they would have they would

have hedonism.
And try it neat to begin with,

just to get that taste profile
and then drink it any way you

want.
If somebody comes in and tells

me they're like Sherry's whiskey
expressions, then we've got a

variant stored Spaniard, which
is heavily kind of Sherry and

works quite well.
So I normally look for clues in

terms of asking people a couple
of simple questions in terms of

what they drink and what they
might like, and so that tends to

work.
That well, if they're if they're

like kind of the big kind of PD
expressions, the art bags of the

frogs, car dealers, then we've
got our own peat monster.

And then I would suggest they
have a peat monster, which is a

great peat expression but with a
elegance and a sophistication.

So that's how that's how we do
it.

And it's about connecting with
people.

Again, it's about understanding
the problem that they might

have, understanding what they
like, and then kind of pitching

what you have.
Do that.

So that's how I think it it.
It works very well for comas

books, that's that's really
interesting.

Would you say that the let's say
that the best route would be to

start from the intrinsics of of
the liquid to start from the

liquid 1st and then try to
understand, you know because I

like to talk about ABV contents
or or I like to talk about taste

flavors, smokiness, Pitted Pete
less pitted that gives a bit of

a hook to to to thing.
And and I think that's very

interesting because it feels
like that that's really like the

the bridge and the connection
between the distillery and the

marketing department.
Because I feel that sometimes

like the distillers and the the
makers are a little bit too much

in an eco Chamber of creating
you know like experiments or

that are for a for a handful of
people that is really like a

handful of people like their
friends.

And it's kind of like
disconnected because it's more

like on try trying new things
rather than answering to some

taste profiles or taste.
Needs.

We're very clear that whiskey
making isn't something niche and

off to the side that happens.
It's it's the heart of of who we

are.
We have a small team who are

focused on actually making the
whiskey, but in many ways all of

us in Compass Box are.
Are independent whiskey makers

and I and I do agree with you
that it should be.

It should be led from the
product.

No amount of amazing marketing
and brand building can can

overcome the fact that if there
isn't magic in the liquid then

then it's not going to work and
and ultimately you can get

people to try anything once, but
the critical thing in any brand

building is repeat.
And you won't get that repeat

unless that that taste
experience really delivers.

It's why we all, all of us in
the alcohol industry obsessed by

liquid lips because that is so,
it is so important in terms of

getting up if you feel confident
in the quality of your product

and we absolutely are in terms
of Compass Box, getting out

there and sampling it in the
right way becomes really, really

important.
And and the entrade is is often

where people. 1st we become
exposed to the brand and sample

it and then they may buy in the
off trade.

But yeah, the on trade is really
critical for that first

experience.
This is really important what

you're saying because I feel
very often there is an issue in

communication on the selling
story because the liquid to

leap, I feel it's the stage one
kind of thing.

But then there's a stage zero,
which is the, I've got the

bottle in front of you and I
explain it to you before you

actually sip it because very
often I feel the brands try to

market themselves versus a
competitor for example and they

try to serve it as you know so
that the the consumer is having

that kind of expression in mind
now.

So it's like we are like this
brand, you know, and you can use

it this way, but they don't talk
about the taste profile.

And then this brand may be much
more bitter or much sweeter.

And you know, if you explain it
that way, you know, just

mentioning the brand without
talking about the taste profile,

it may be totally off because
it's just like, yeah, but you

just told me that it's exactly
like that.

I mean to to your example, to
give a real example, it could be

a, I don't know, like a like a
lavroig or an art bag.

And then if you talk about if
you like our bag, drink the Pit

Monster, for example.
And then if you don't explain

exactly what they're going to
find of a difference versus

lavroig or art bag, you're going
to take to put people off

because then it's just like this
is not like art bag, you know.

But if you explain that it's as
you said, like it has a is a

much more elegant finish or it's
smoother or however that could

be now without going into the
proper selling.

So then you try to explain to
them what they're going to

taste.
And I always explain that

because that's crucially
important because I've, I've

been myself put off spirits
brands just because they were

sold to me in the wrong way,
because I didn't mean it that

way.
You know, like I was not

expecting something like this.
You know, I had the spritz ones

that it was sold to me as this
is just like apparel, but just

likely different.
And they didn't explain to me

that it was, for example, much
bitter, much more bitter.

And then if you if they had
explained it to me that way, you

know, if you don't like apparel
because of the sugar content,

you will like this one and then
I would drink it.

But then if you tell me to tell
me I don't have Aperol, but I've

got this one, it's just like the
Pepsi example, no?

Chris, that's very, very true.
Using other brands I think can

be a healthful reference point.
But if you'd say you're just

like Aperol, then nobody's going
to change because they have

Aperol.
But if you're into a spritz

occasion and you're looking for
something lower sugar, then this

can be really interesting and
that's why I think it can work

well having a reference point.
But.

But yes, saying why you're
different on a compass box,

where I've always kind of pushed
the boundaries of being very

transparent.
We believe that people should

know exactly what's in the
product.

We're proudly A blend and what
we believe is that blending,

it's like painting with multiple
colors.

I've worked on many amazing kind
of single malts and then often

there's a particular kind of
house style, which is great.

But what we can do as a blend is
we can choose from different

distilleries and we can paint
with different colors.

And so that allows us to come up
with something different.

So it may be peted, but it's not
going to be peted in the exact

same way that Freud might be or
an art bag might be.

So I think that's very
important.

And I think the importance of
the first cell is really

important.
You only get one chance to make

a first impression, and if
that's wrong or if that's

inconsistent, then it doesn't
work.

I'm a huge believer in the power
of consistency, the message.

That you tell in one bar about
why somebody should drink your

brand should be the same in
another bar, should be the same

in another city, because if it's
not then you will get found out.

And so again it goes back to
where we started.

You can't be all things to all
people, Chris, but just be very

clear what it is you're trying
to do, what is you're not trying

to do, and why it should work.
And the other thing which you

mentioned, which I think is so
true, is that the power of the

packaging.
I think that packaging is the

primary source of marketing.
You're not always going to be

around in a bar.
When somebody walks into a bar

and looks at the shelf and sees
a compass box, you're not going

to be able to explain, well,
compass box is this.

And that's why the packaging
needs to work hard by itself and

communicate what the brand is by
itself.

Because yeah.
You can't always assume that

somebody knows it or somebody's
going to be there explaining why

it's done in that way.
And that's why we're always very

fussy and choiceful in terms of
our packaging on Compass Box.

And we do things in a very
different type of way than many

of the amazing brands, the
traditional Scotch whiskey

brands.
We have fun, especially with our

labels.
I see that.

Which is good because it should
be a fun experience.

We're in a high interest
category.

You mentioned those people in
that bar in Prague, and they

come together on a regular
basis.

That's the joy of the category
we work in.

I started my career in fabric
softeners and detergents, and

people didn't come together
every night, every week to talk

about which fabric softener they
were using.

And so this is we're very
blessed to be working in the

category that we're in.
I can imagine, I can imagine and

building on what you just said,
like you've got a very wide

selection of of expressions,
right.

So that's the first thing you
see on the back bar.

You know I see, I see the pit
monster, you know, I, I, I don't

see necessarily compass box.
I mean it took me some time to

be honest to to realize that you
know they were all part of the

same family.
I mean there, there was

consistency obviously you can
see that that they are family,

but in bars where you see only
one of them and not let's say a

wall or you know like a 3-4
bottles of it, then that's the

first thing you you see in terms
of packaging, right.

So how do you take selling in
lower outlet segmentation

without disclosing trade secrets
obviously is it more of a a

brand kind of approach or is it
more like over portfolio type of

approach when you go out there
and sell to to bars for example?

So a couple of points in that.
One is you're right on for many

people, people know our
expressions before they know the

brand.
So people are very connected

with the Pete Monster with
Orchard House.

And one of the things we're
trying to dial up a little bit

more is just that people
understand the common thread of

what's compass box.
We talk about being a little bit

more brand led rather than just
being expression led.

Because although each of our
whiskey expressions are

delightfully delicious, but
they're different, then there's

a common element about all of
them and we need to get a little

bit better about explaining what
Compass Box is rather than just

what the peat monster is.
And so that's a very important

balance to get right.
And then how we look at it in

terms of how do we target which
bars we go into, there's an

extra element in terms of do our
consumers go into these type of

bars.
So if you get distribution.

In a bar where your target
market doesn't go in, then

that's a waste of distribution,
that's a waste of effort because

you're not going to get the
turn.

And I remember my early days
sales training and the very

experienced sales manager was
taking me to and he gave me this

lesson, which I always remember.
It's never worry about your

first sale.
I always think of your second

sale and so because anybody can
get, anybody can get a bar to

buy one bottle, one case, but
it's about getting that turn

going.
So they're going to buy the

second one.
Which I think is a very

important lesson.
So I think the consumer is

really important.
So if the consumer, if your

target consumer doesn't go in
there, then you shouldn't be

going in there.
And then I think it's some of

our expressions are more
tailored maybe to different

types of occasions.
So Orchard House, because it's

it's light, it's delicate, it
works brilliantly in cocktails.

If it's a bar that's cocktail
lead and we want to be on the

cocktail menu, then that would
be a very good one to choose.

We've also products of
difference.

Price range.
And so that has an impact.

So in in an off trade
environment, we sell products in

our core range from probably
about €40 to €100.

Now depending on the type of bar
then €100 one might be less

relevant, but a 40 or €50 one
might be more relevant.

Fundamentally, and this applies
to the off trade as well, if we

get distribution in a place
where our consumers don't go,

that's a waste and it's not
going to sell that.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is A2 parts

episode, so listen to episode 26
as well.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
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come back next week for more
insights about building brands

from the bottom up.