024 | Knowing Your Brand and Sticking To It: The importance of identifying your target occasion Bottom Up, not chasing trends | with Alex Ouziel Founder of 9diDANTE Vermouth & CEO of FIOL Prosecco

Hi and welcome to the Mafair
Drinks Podcast.

I'm Chris Mafair, founder of
Mafair Drinks, where we provide

the nonsense approach to
building drinks brands from the

bottom up.
I will be your host and in each

episode I will interview a
drinks builder from the drinks

and hospitality ecosystem.
In episode 24, I had the

privilege of interviewing Alex
Oziel, the founder of Novedi

Dante Vermouth and the CEO of
Fior Proseco.

He's a veteran of our industry
with many years in the game.

He has previously spent ten
years in Bacardi, from VP and

Managing Director of Eastern
Europe to President of Asia,

Middle East and Africa, he
possesses a truly international

perspective on drinks.
I hope you enjoy our

conversation.
Hi, Alex, how you doing?

Hi, Chris.
And then very good, Thank you.

Great to be here with you today.
Absolutely.

Like, I'm honored to have you
finally.

We we even managed to meet in
person last year at at Bar

Convent that was that was really
great after after we had another

session like this in four years
ago.

Yes, I was very early in the
journey, very early in the

journey.
I was thinking about that this

morning.
I said it's a similar kind of

interview, but it's a very
different one because it's four

years down the line.
So there's there's many more

insights to discuss.
We follow each other on

LinkedIn, on social media and so
on.

You know my my philosophy that
brands are built bottom up and I

love how you challenge me in the
in the comments and we keep the

constructive debate and that's
an interesting way because of

course ultimately it's not as
easy as only happening bottom up

as you as you know.
So how I want to start with a

question like on how how do you
build the demand for a brand

like yours?
How?

How do you show up and make sure
that you know when you start?

Actually, people have heard
about you before you show up at

the door.
Well, I think that probably the

first thing is to be honest and
to live up to the expectations

when you build a new brand,
perhaps the first time that you

feel that something is going in
the right direction.

Is when somebody says, Oh yeah,
I've heard about you and I've

wanted to try it, right.
And then whenever you get that

kind of reaction, you have a
hell of a lot of questions you

heard about me.
Where?

From whom?
What did they say?

So at the end of the day, every
single interaction is an

opportunity to take the brand
forward to the next step.

And how do you build the first
one?

You call it build a brand bottom
up right.

I tend to think more of inside
out, seeing it more as an

epicenter of where you put a
seat or you put a radio wave and

then little by little beat from
your friends, your family, that

bar that is close to you or that
shop that is nearby.

And these people that know you
well.

And if they are not going to
help you, why should anybody

else?
So you cannot convince the ones

close to you.
How do you have a chance in hell

in convincing anybody else?
So put as many of those seats as

you can and then spend time
watering them.

And I was myly enough when you
said that.

Because if all of your friends
wants a free bottle, you already

know.
What's going to happen in the

trade with people wanting
sampling and free bottles?

If you can't convince your
friend to buy your product, then

it's a bit of a challenge,
right?

Yeah, the real problem is when
you give a free bottle and then

people say what do I do with
this?

You know you've got a problem.
I was reading somewhere, they

said, look, you should give as
many free bottles as people ask.

Probably you need to link that
to us.

You can, as you can afford as
well, because you're paying the

taxes and maybe sometimes the
V80 and things like that.

I think that you need to get as
many fans behind the brand.

You know, people who when they
go into a bar or they go into a

shop because they know you, they
will ask for.

In my case, nobody of y'all
because.

They know they're not going to
find it, but they're spreading

the word.
They're starting perhaps a

conversation of what is
novellandi.

So it's this new vermouth, it's
amazing.

You should try it and so on,
right.

So unless you have millions of
dollars, in which case I think

we would have a completely
different conversation today,

which in most of the cases is
not the case, I think that you

need to really get into get real
tactics and to extract as much.

Value as possible of every
single opportunity that you get.

I love that.
When you start with the brand,

there's always this
conversation.

I'm always talking about, you
know, don't try to be a jackable

trade.
Create your own category you

know, and then In a way, that's
what you did when you know you.

Brought something to the table
that was different than, you

know, the regular vermouth
category.

You were one of the one of the
guys who rejuvenated the

category now.
So in terms of trade, not much

in terms of liquid development
and journey, but more on from a

trade perspective, what did you
bring to consumers, to the bars,

to bartenders, to distributors?
And so on.

Well, the first thing you need
to bring is a good product.

I think that if we go back, I
don't know, 200 years, I mean

Okay, maybe even 700 to the
Chatrouses or whatever, right,

The first brands in alcohol
started.

Because people were literally
dying from bad product.

So having that brand was a way
of knowing this is safe and this

is good and this is going to be
a good experience.

I think we've moved on from
that, right.

And today we're in a situation
where the technology around

making drinks, the quality of
the ingredients and how readily

available are the excess
capacity that there is in the

industry.
Make it almost harder to make

bad drinks than make good
drinks.

So it's kind of like a given
that you are making a good

drink, right.
So if it's not good, you should

be doing something else.
So I don't think it's about,

yeah, that's nice, right?
Because most bottles you're

going to say, yeah, that's nice.
I like it more, I like it less

or whatever.
So I think you have to have.

You need to bring something
extra to the table.

In the case of vermouth, thank
you very much for putting me in

the group of amazing people that
are doing a lot to continue to

rejuvenate the reverse category.
I think we are at the beginning

of a journey.
I think there are a lot of very

good products out there and I
could not just.

Try to replicate any of them.
Either I brought a new

philosophy and a new perspective
to how the category should be

addressed, or I might as well
just do something else.

In my case it was about the
importance of wine in verbal

faking, right?
So if vermouth by law in Europe

has to be minimum 75% wine, I
was asking myself, why was

nobody talking about wine?
Why did we regularly see the

varieties of the wines that were
used in that product, right?

Why was wine something that was
very often covered by the flavor

of the botanicals, rather than
use wine in itself as an

additional botanical in the
vermouth meeting?

Because each wine has its aromas
and its texture through the

tannins and its color and its.
Paste and etc, etc, etc.

So that's what we decided to
bring on the table, right?

We make a vermouth that is
centered around Piermonte wine.

We use only 100% wines from the
Piermonte region where vermouth

de Torino has to be made.
And then from there we start to

build our story.
Now the fact that I have a

differentiated product.
Doesn't mean that automatically.

I have a queue of people saying
thank God that this person

arrived and did that right.
So we need to go and explain it.

We need to see the reaction of
the people.

Hopefully it's a good one and
we've had amazing reaction from

everybody.
But then also any change, any

significant change.
It also means that variations in

recipes different approaches.
So hopefully.

In the best of cases, our
philosophy makes a product that

a when you open it, you should
be able to drink it almost

straight from the bottle and it
should feel very good.

And the people who choose to
transform it into a cocktail or

use it creatively in their
creations.

Hopefully it's a product that is
going to inspire new creativity

in them, either in twisting the
old.

Or creating new things nice.
This is a nice bridge to A to a

next question that I've got.
When I talk about target

occasion, there's always a
little bit of confusion about

you know, it's do we mean like
an appetitive and after dinner,

dinner kind of occasion or do we
talk about it an actual cocktail

like a Negroni and Americano and
so on.

And you mentioned it there.
First of all, it's a product

that can be drank meat and then
you can actually also make

cocktails with it.
So how do you play that in the

in the narrative?
Like do you, do you have a kind

of like a hook in the
conversation or do you leave it

more to the bartender?
Do you leave it more flexible

still highlighting the wine?
Highlighting what you said

previously about bringing
something different to the table

and not, you know, just another
vermouth?

We obviously need to highlight a
lot of wine.

It's our philosophy, but it also
costs us about 10 times more

than a cheap wine.
We need to explain, explain that

part as well.
As a brand creator, you have to

have a very you have to have
both a very clear idea of what

you would like it to be and a
very humble approach to being

wrong.
I may want the Nova.

Dante is the vermouth that's
going to make.

It's going to put the name into
the Negroni, right?

So that we.
People bar coal and the ground,

they say make it with novedonte,
please, right?

Or the rest of the world follows
the Spanish trends the same way

they did with the gin and tonic
a few years back.

And now that whole of Spain is
drinking vermouth and the rocks.

The whole of the world is going
to start drinking vermouth and

the rocks, which I think it will
happen and that Novedon is going

to be the brand that.
Helps them in that transition

towards a great, amazing future.
I think it's important to have

all of these clear goals that
might grow the brand in the

future.
At the same time, if any

bartender, great, famous or just
one in a local bar in some

location creates a drink that
juices Nova, Dante or Vermouth

in general, and that just
becomes a hit.

We need to be able to jump on
that and help it along.

When we look at the success of
Aperol Spritz, Campari at the

beginning of that, did not know
that would become one of the

five biggest brands in the
world, right?

Did it happen because Aperol
tastes great out of the bottle,

or because the Spritz just
happened to be a very cool?

Drink and is it because it's
simple to make, or is it because

it's orange?
Nobody quite really knows.

It just kind of like took a life
of its own, right?

And then all you can do when
that happens, and if you're

lucky enough to be involved in
something like that ever

happening to you, is to
recognize it and to see how.

You can jump into the way for
right that way without

sacrificing the spirit of of the
brand that you're trying to

create.
You have to have a clear

direction, but you need to
recognize that you don't know

what thing will happen in the
future that will exactly lead to

the success.
That's a very interesting point

because I was, I was having
actually this discussion

yesterday with another guest on
the podcast and and we were

talking about this because
ultimately you, you, you must

have a direction which
ultimately you don't know if

it's the right one.
But then you need to be as you

said, you know, flexible enough
to allow the bar world to try

new things with it.
And then all of a sudden maybe

it's perfect in a Manhattan and
not in a Negroni like as you

anticipated.
And then all of a sudden, you

know, then you can build that
target drink bottom up coming

from the market and and really
say okay, this is what we want

to do.
Because what I feel very often

especially with big brands that
have this, you know, drink

strategy and so on, they are
fixated about something.

But it doesn't come from the
market as your, let's say

aberosprits example.
It comes from an advertising

agency or a design agency or the
marketing department And they

think like, oh, we need to push
this drink because it it's hot

at the moment and it's just
like, yeah, but if the brand

doesn't really work with it and,
you know, people don't recognize

it as as that, but actually they
want to play with another drink,

so be it, you know.
And nothing stops you from

keeping communicating that.
That's the ultimate thing of

really keeping these iterations
and the journey flexible enough.

But at least having that kind of
like trajectory, as you said,

building on that, you know, what
role does that play into, let's

say, the selection of bars when
you enter a city?

Well, look, I mean of course
everybody just wants to pick up

the best 50 and then go through
the list And unfortunately most

of the big companies come with
very big checkbooks and they buy

it out, right.
So you have.

The best 50s that have the same
drinks with everybody else.

Luckily we also have the the top
500, so now that gives us a few

more bars to try and get.
Perhaps there's a little bit

more room for everybody, you
know.

But jokes apart, I think that
you need to know, hey, what kind

of bar goes with your kind of
drink, right?

So if I'm selling a vermouth or
of y'all Prosecco, and they are.

They are very appetive of LED
moments.

What am I doing in the nightclub
at 4:00 in the morning?

Right.
So I need to know where I'm

likely to be to be drunk, right.
The second thing is it's not so

much about the consumer, but
it's about the bar business

itself.
Do I have a drink that fits into

their drink portfolio but also
their cost structure?

I think that very often it's
not.

It's not done even in the
biggest companies to really

understand the economics of a
cocktail or a drink, right.

What is the objective cost that
that bar is trying to make

right?
And what is the drinks that they

are putting in there?
And how much does the ice cost,

how much does the does this, the
grapefruit slice or skin cost,

right.
So make up those economics and

understand how much.
How much they can expend on

their vermouth, right?
If I'm coming with a vermouth

that costs double what they're
used to put in there, they

either going to have to
sacrifice the cost of their gene

or they're bourbon, or they're
going to need to be able to

prove that that drink is going
to sell at a higher price

because it's using nobody down
there, right?

So I think we need to be
realistic with all of those

things and we need to have an
understanding.

Now, does that mean that we turn
this whole thing into a

financial equation?
Hopefully not, because I think

it's an industry of dreams and
emotions and memories.

But if we're not conscious of
its economics, we can just be

hitting against the wall day in,
day out and that wall is never

going to fall ultimately is this
whole thing about, you know,

like you get them, they engage
emotionally because they like

you and they like the product,
they like the journey and the

people Then, you know,
strategically that's to make

sense because I mean if they
don't care about vermouth to

that example, or Prosecco, if
they just want to have a

Prosecco.
To put in the spritz, you know,

and they want to get it as cheap
as possible, then it's not for,

you know, fuel.
And then at the same time, if

they want to just mesh, you
know, Negroni for, you know, 10

bucks, then probably they're not
going to use your vermouth.

So that automatically
streamlines the journey and how

you play in the hunting.
Because that's always one of the

things that I'm struggling with
is that brands say like Okay,

let's launch in whatever, you
know, France.

And then they think like, you
know, an army is going to

conquer and the tanks are moving
to the border of France.

But you know ultimately you know
you go to Paris, you go to

certain cities and it's
ultimately you will never

conquer Paris because it's
always going to be a few bars

within the thousands of bars in
Paris.

I'm interested in knowing like
how how you did in starting this

journey, because the actual
journey effectively it's top

down because the.
Flow, it's top down from, you

know, the winery, the distillery
and the brewery and so on.

But in reality, you know, like
brand building wise, it's more

like a bottle map thing because
you actually select the bar that

you want to get in.
So how did you start?

Did you approach first the
distributor or did you start

from your inner circle and then
try to find the distributor?

I definitely think that you need
to build while in my case I

needed to build a network of
distributors that would allow

the brands to get to the
customers and the consumers.

I think it's important to do a
bit of yourself, but because it

teaches you what are the good
selling points?

What are the things that matter.
It helps you perfect your story.

It helps you to understand the
economics.

It helps you to understand what
what people care about, what

people don't care about.
Because we all think that

everybody cares about everything
that we do, but people care

about a lot of other things.
It doesn't mean that they don't

care about ours, but where is it
in their in the list of things

that they care about, right?
So I think it's important to get

out there and do some of the
selling.

You call it hunting before I
think it's more like farming.

It's not a one off kill it.
You have to kind of like grow it

and develop it and take care of
it.

But ultimately, being a brand is
not only about being.

Well known and being liked is
also well-being found, right?

I may love a brand, but if I
never find it, eventually I will

discard it.
And the only way to do that is

by having a capital network that
you can develop, you can

develop.
And that means that the role of

the distributor and the partner
in Porter, whatever it is in

each country, it is critical.
It is critical because A they

already have that network.
B.

They have.
The number of people that are

able to get it out there and
that means that it's not about

selling a product, but it's
about helping other people care

about selling your product.
And that just means that the

whole part of that equation
becomes critical.

How are we going to make sure
that people who have not one

priority but maybe 100 or 1000,
they put time and are interested

in yours?
And how are they going to be

interested, not only from an
emotional side, but also from an

economical side and especially
for a sustained period of time

because it takes time, right
when I first joined this

industry, the first person I
interviewed with, he said.

To me, this is not a fast moving
consumer good industry.

This is a slow moving consumer,
good industry.

It takes long time for that
bottle, the first bottle, to go

through a bar, and then maybe
they'll buy a second one, and

then maybe they'll forget that
will not forget to put it in a

place where they can use it,
right?

And that's all part of the
process.

Just getting it out there,
keeping it top of mind, making

sure it's not forgotten.
I remember when you told me

that's that, that line, you know
there's low moving consumer

goods and I think I've used it
in some posts as well because I

really loved it and especially
for me coming from here

originally, you know that is
really fast moving.

You know, that's really like,
you know, you buy a case, you

drink it at home, at the party,
and then you buy another case.

But it doesn't work like that
with vermouth.

I mean, nobody's going to the
supermarket buying a case of

vermouth unless they have a
really big party.

But otherwise, you know, like,
the brand is going to to stay

there for a while.
Like, you need to actually

explain to them how to use it.
Because a beer, you know, nobody

needs to be told, like how to
open a bottle of beer and and

drink it, right?
Even in the beer, right.

So if if you're selling
Guinness, you have to teach

people how to pour it at 45
degrees, how to let it stand for

a few minutes while it settles,
and then you finish it off

right?
If you start selling Corona for

the first time, you have to
remember people to make sure

that they have lines in their
bar, right?

And maybe they don't have lines.
If you are selling draft beer,

you need to teach them how to
change a keg and they make sure

that the beer doesn't go stale,
right?

So every industry to bring it to
perfection has a lot of barriers

and obstacles and so on, right?
So very, very often we, we hear

the phrase it's a marathon,
right?

It's a marathon because it takes
long periods of time.

No, vedante, we sponsored
Infernoran.

It's a big obstacle course,
right?

Logic, your brand is more like
an obstacle course because it is

like a marathon.
But then you run, you get

exhausted and when you think you
cannot go anymore, they put a

blow the obstacle in front of
you.

And now this okay, how are we
going to do this one, right?

And then you maybe get 3
attempts to do it.

And then you decide whether okay
do I jump it and go somewhere

else or do I persevere and make
sure that I do it either because

I'm proud or because it's
important or because I cannot

win if I don't make it happen.
Right.

So it's just about covering all
those barriers.

You know, it's for it's bloody
hard that somebody remembers

your brand.
Because we're in an industry

where the first time that you
drink a brand, most likely at

the end of the night, you're
going to be drunk, right?

So the following morning, you're
not going to remember what it

is?
Many things you're not going to

remember.
Many things, and especially the

brand you drank.
Maybe it was recommended by the

bartender.
Maybe your friend went to the

bar and brought the drinks and
didn't tell you what they got.

Maybe you saw the bottle.
Maybe you didn't see the bottle.

Maybe you ordered it.
Maybe you didn't.

Right.
So the following day you're

going to say, oh, that was good.
Maybe if you're lucky as a brand

owner, say, what was it?
And then it might take six

months when you're a small brand
or a year for you to stumble on

that brand again.
Absolutely.

And then you might remember that
it was that brand that you had

tried six months or a year ago.
And then this time you say, oh,

yeah, now I that's that brand.
And then you maybe take a

picture with your phone and then
you remember what it is for the

next day after you're drunk
again.

And then you want to go and buy
it and you can't find it

anywhere right now.
Luckily today we have the

Internet, so if I want to pay as
much for the bottle in posting

as I pay for the bottle itself,
I can buy it on the Internet.

Right?
So.

So.
That's, that's out of focus.

And then eventually I start to
see it more and more and more

and more, right.
So if the brand makes itself

available, there's a chance that
I will consume it.

Now what I'm saying this is
because each one of those

obstacles is what we have to
deal with it.

And what do we need to do?
We need to find ways of creating

steps for the consumer to feel
that the obstacles are not

obstacles.
Which is the catch 22 because

like then if you make it so well
that it looks easy like to the

aperospritz example because
nobody remembers that. 10 years

ago or 20 years ago, nobody ever
was drinking it.

They only remember the big
parties and the Instagram

pictures and the orange color on
it.

You make it so easy that then a
lot of people want to enter the

industry because it's like, come
on, it's so simple.

You know, like let's launch
Evermuth.

The first thing to anybody out
there listening to this and

thinking of starting their own
brand, one thing to remember is

that every single overnight
success in this industry is 12

years old, right so there.
That's probably the youngest,

but it happens probably for
everything, right?

Two weeks ago it was the 20th
anniversary of Tesla.

That means that Tesla started in
2003.

None of us had heard about
electric cars in 2003, right?

Like the iPhone.
I mean, I was going for like

2007, 2007 apparel.
We've talked a few times.

I think it starts around 2003,
2004, right.

We're talking 20 years right now
when by the time the early

adopters and the trendsetters
have passed the drink to

somebody else, we could have
been talking that it's 7-8

years, right?
Because absolutely, because of

all this whole process of
awareness, trial, availability,

even a brand with the support of
one of the biggest companies in

the world is going to take a
longer time.

But even more, if now we open an
Internet page of any of the big

companies in the world and we go
into their portfolio, we'll see

brands that are probably selling
volumes, which are bigger than

10 startups and that we have
never heard of.

Yeah, absolutely.
And that we never see them,

right.
And then the moment you've seen

them, you can never have seen
them again.

And then they pop up everywhere.
But there is no magic formula.

And you choose which are the
barriers that you want to build

steps for and make them easier
to the people.

And if you get lucky and you
choose well and you don't stop

because I think perseverance is
very important, then maybe one

day Harvard writes a case study
about you.

I don't know.
If if there is the actual true

story about that, because by the
time probably like a lot of

people have left the industry
and there's a lot of legends

around it.
Let's talk now how you know how

you go.
I mean, we discussed how.

You enter the first bars and you
gain that first bottle like

finally it's on the back bar.
You made it and and now like you

realize it's lower than it was
because of course it takes time

to deplete that that.
Bottle and sell it out.

How do you talk about your
brand?

I mean, how do you make sure
that that bottle becomes a case

for that bar to order?
Is not that they may not ever

buy a full actual case of your
product, but.

You know, if you sum it up, it's
actually cases, let's say.

I would say that the first step
is choose when you go to the bar

with the first bottle, right?
If you go in the middle of the

service, no one's going to
listen to you because you may

have free time at 8:00 because
it's after your work time, but

it is banging the work time of
whoever you're talking to,

right?
So they're not really going to

appreciate that.
So find out when it's a good

time, you know, maybe don't
spring a bottle on them.

Maybe say look at start the
conversation and then see if you

can come back and do a tasting
with them or if you can just

send them a bottle and follow up
with them, then how do you go

from one to a case?
Well, it can take a long period

of time, right?
Because a bottle can last a long

time.
They might be selling a lot of

negronics, but if they don't use
nobody Dante in any of them

because instead of selling the
Negroni at €7.00, they have to

sell it at 12.
Then there's a little bit of

work to do and either you get
into the Negroni or you can

convince them that maybe by up
charging a Negroni which maybe

send is an upsale from the
current one.

So they go from having one
Negroni to two Negroni that is

more expensive Negroni uses
novedonte or premium remote in

general, then maybe you can
start to do some more volumes,

right.
So I think that you need to be,

again persistent.
You need to be get creative

sometimes.
You need to maybe be ready to

change your ideals for the
ideals of the bar that you're

working with.
You know, they've decided to do

a batch cocktail and it's not
the one that you wanted to do,

but it's the one that they're
looking for a product like

yours.
Are you ready to do something

with them in that moment?
Right.

But at the end of the day, I
think that if you are selling a

case in a bar, whichever the bar
it is, it is because you are in

the cocktail menu or you are
drunk straight one of the two.

Either way you're in the menu,
people can order you of it and

you're not there as an
ingredient in the list of

whiskeys, list of this list of
liquors, list of verbals and so

on, where every so often
somebody will look into that.

But the multiplier effect of
being in a cocktail is huge, and

that's why they usually get
bought up.

Yeah, and then actually.
You read, you read my mind

because that's what I wanted to
ask you now.

But because you have been in the
industry for for a long time and

you know you have taken both
angles not like the big company

and you know in the small
startup and whenever I talk to

brands especially of course like
big brands, there is always the

magic trio.
You know the back bar, beverage

menu, cocktail menu, and you
know execution standards, the

minimum standards or however
company called it and.

I always feel like it's a little
bit of a we we go to the

cigarette to the Pulchinella
know the Pulchinella secret that

everybody in town know about but
but actually like it.

Everybody try to keep it as a
secret and.

You know all companies talk
about this and they push their

system to to reach that but
ultimately everybody going with

the same kind of cake then it
makes it more difficult, right?

So how?
First of all, I mean, you

already answered my question.
You think that being on the

cocktail is the ultimate driver
of rotation and velocity in a

bar.
If you want more people to try

your product, more bartenders to
have a conversation with

consumers about how they made
that cocktail and how it makes

it different to every, all the
time you've had that cocktail

and you have a chance that your
brand name is being mentioned

and maybe your bottle is being
shown because people have not

heard about you.
So that's an opportunity to say,

oh, can you show me which one it
is?

And maybe they take a picture
and maybe they Google it.

And maybe so all of this
happening, whichever order they

do right, the biggest chance
that that happens is going to be

in a cocktail menu.
There are 250 bottles behind a

back bar.
Nobody's going to a bar to read

a book in the menu, you know,
you know, some people do if if

somebody's late and whatever,
right?

But people are there to enjoy
themselves.

They're not there to learn about
your brand and most of the

people, right?
So.

So how do you enter that
conversation in a way that is

entertaining and that perhaps is
interesting and perhaps it make

them want to go back and know
more about you?

But listen, I mean, you were
talking about the big guys and

all of that.
At the end of the day, I think

no bar in the world.
At least I haven't met that bar

yet.
That tells me I love all of

these big companies, right?
In some cases, the big companies

that have some brands that
they're interested about and so

on, right?
But, but most of the time, and

particularly through COVID and
after COVID, it has been

obviously important to rely on
deals and things like that.

Most of the time it's because
they can get you all the product

that you need and most of the
time they can help you with the

price, right?
All of the bars out there would

love to have and serve only
premium craft spirits, right?

So I think if there's one thing
that any craft spirit

entrepreneur can do is find
which is the big company that

the bar you're talking to really
hates and see which brand of

theirs you can replace.
That's a gold nugget there.

That's a great way to put the
foot in the door and enter that

kind of conversation now,
because we talk about the

barriers and the obstacles on
the marathon kind of thing, and

it's easy to focus only on the.
Issues and then we wouldn't even

be having a conversation and
it's, you know, it's difficult

to grow listeners on a podcast
and it's difficult to get bus to

drink vermouth because they
don't know the category yet and

so on.
But otherwise we wouldn't be

here, right.
You know, like there is a, there

is the passion element, there is
the drive, there is like the.

Knowing we are on the right
trajectory and you know we get

appreciated to your point, like
I heard about you and then

that's the that's the shiver on
the spine that that kicks you

in.
And you know even though you had

8-8 hours of hell, then that 30
seconds are just like, boom,

okay, I go.
That's why I wake up tomorrow,

right?
And and this is a great way of

of of playing that and and say
okay.

Don't take it as a oh, it's
useless to go to try to be on

the cocktail, man.
You come on, they want money.

They don't want to be, you know,
with craft brands and so on.

You know, like they have
contracts and blah, blah, blah.

Because that's kind of like a
loser's game.

And we know it's difficult.
We're not saying it's easy, but

there are ways to build that
conversation and be maybe in a

in a side cocktail that will not
be the the top cocktail that

everybody wants to go for, but.
Maybe can be like a little bit

of a special or a weekly
special, or the cocktail of the

month or whatever.
Like try to give them a reason

to put you on the menu or give
you some space or an insert and

try to make that happen.
If you want to drive rotations

in bars 100%, it goes back to
before you know what.

Do you have a clear idea of what
bars you want to be in, what

cocktails you want to be in,
what kind of occasions, So on

right?
And I think that the most

important reason for that
clarity on all of that is that

most of the time you will not
achieve it, but at least you

will not feel lost, right?
Because you do have a northern

start to follow.
A small company cannot have

Kpi's the way a big company has,
right?

The big company has Kpi's
because it needs to find an easy

way for an army of people to
understand the goals of the

person that is setting them
right and that it needs to be

binary in a certain way, right?
A small company that's not KPI,

especially if you are just a few
people right?

But having a guide helps you to
understand if you are moving in

the direction that you
originally intended.

It remembers you which way to go
when it's pitch dark and you

feel lost.
And it also helps you to not

electivize success, right?
So I said I was going to do this

and I've done this, but I didn't
want that.

Actually.
I wanted this, right?

No, I wanted that and I did so
much of it, right?

If there are probably 3 Kpi's in
my head that I kind of like

follow without clear numbers.
I don't say I have to get X or Y

or ZI will follow how many bars
I'm in, how many cocktail lists

I'm in, and how many negrones
I'm in.

Because I might be in the
cocktail list but not in the

Negroni.
That is the biggest selling

item.
Maybe I'm in the Manhattan and

so on, which is great, but if
I'm in the Negroni, I will sell

three times more and more
importantly three times more.

People will be able to enjoy me
and learn about me.

So, so I think it's to set it
yourselves kind of like a three

tier objective list, which is
like this is good, this is

great, this is amazing, right?
So how many good things, how

many great things, How many
amazing things have I been able

to achieve?
Have the team and the partners

that I work with been able to
get?

It allows us to to keep that
direction for a sustained period

of time.
That's a great approach and

that's also the feeling that I'm
that I'm having that's why I'm

you know I always talk about
these brands are built bottom up

and and the system because we
are big fans of this industry

because it's a people's business
now.

But at some point you hit the
glass ceiling because like I

love you but you know my
negronies are €6 in the in a

Piazza in in Italy and.
Sorry Alex.

You know, like you know if
somebody wants to have it, you

know I will have charged them
but you know it, it will never

be on the on the cocktail list
for example now.

But so ultimately it's all
about, it's also about the money

and it's also about other
things.

That's why, like, it's important
to have a system in place in

which you can boost your network
and the human aspect of things,

which we will never get out from
the equation because that's the

first thing that people relate
to.

But then at some point you need
assistance to know if you're

going to the right directions or
not.

And as you said, you know, it
may be that, I don't know, it's

actually like the wrong type of
people that that drink it.

I thought it would be like the
top bartenders in the world and

it's actually like a mom and pop
bar down the road that drink

that that sell a case a week.
You know, I would never expect

that, but it doesn't matter
because that's the.

That's what keeps your brand
alike.

That's what brings the cash in.
And they probably have seen it

by having a cocktail one night
in one of the 5050 best bars.

So don't hit yourself with, you
know, the, oh, I'm not going the

right direction as long as the
trajectory, as we said, you

know, like the the finish line
of the marathon is there.

I know you're a big marathon
guy.

That's the thing.
Do you think that that kind of

conversations are happening?
In terms of you mentioned the

distributors and wholesalers,
they are the ultimate guys that

have the sales force out there
to make those things happen.

Who is actually doing the most
to move these cases?

Some brands hire brand
ambassadors.

Some brands hire like the direct
sales force, 123 people in a

city, one people, one person.
But then you also have, you know

like an army of, I don't know,
1020 sales people from a

wholesaler.
In your experience like how can

you optimize that flow and you
know who's the ultimate engine

behind behind that?
Look for sure the more people

you have advocating for a brand,
whether it's a salesperson or

ambassador, the more success.
That you're going to have just

simply, it's a question of odds,
right?

You're giving yourself more
chance.

So you obviously should have as
many as you can afford or you

should find ways of doing it
that you can do it with the

means that you have right by
having real funds and things

like that.
I think that what is important

is why you hire if you hire an
ambassador or if you hire a

sales team anywhere and this
goes.

For a small startup or for the
biggest multinational in the

world, because I see this
problem happening all of the

time, are you hiring that person
because you're always

complaining that your partner
and the distributor is not doing

the job?
Or are you hiring the person to

reinforce the job that your
partner is doing?

All right, you can hire 200
people.

If you're not aligned with
objectives with your

distributor, they are not going
to help.

So you should never hire to
replace the job that you should

do in order to have an aligned
set of objectives and a common

goal with your distributor.
If that's what you're hiring,

you much better spend time
either building that connection

or changing partner.
If you do it to reinforce them,

then you have a chance to
success.

But then the question comes,
well, is it somebody that is

working with me there or is it
somebody that might as well be

employed by the distributor,
right, Because if you are

aligned, it will work.
If you feel that that person's

job is to check what the
distributor is doing, and that's

what I see very often, then your
problem.

It's not gonna be your
ambassador.

The problem might be you and the
problem might be your partner.

But if you don't fix the root
problem, you are not going to

all of a sudden see a change in
the success that you have.

I think the first thing is like
a semantic thing that we need to

do as an industry, like to stop
calling it managing

distributors, managing sales
teams, because the way it

conveys it's like I'm the
policeman and I'm the.

I'm the checker of the importer,
I'm the checker of the the

wholesaler, I'm the checker of
the salesperson.

And you know when you convey
that message, even if you know

in words, you say, of course we
work together.

In reality you need to really
create this kind of thing.

That's why I would say like you
know, sell with wholesalers.

No, not two wholesalers because
ultimately otherwise it's, you

know, it's never going to happen
and it goes back to the building

from the bottom up and really
understanding, OK, if you know

the right bars, then you know,
pick a wholesaler and a

distributor that you know have
access to those bars.

Because I've had hundreds of
those conversations trying to,

you know, redirect distributors
or wholesalers to a certain

typologies of bars and they
don't have it.

If you sell a beer brand and
it's a pub type of beer brand

and the distributor is a wine
distributor that sell wines and

champagnes to the best
restaurants in town, it's never

gonna work and vice versa the
other way around.

I mean, if you have a wine brand
and these guys are selling in a

mainstream way to Taverns across
the city, you appointed the

wrong person.
And it's not because it's a bad

distributor, it's just bad for
your brands.

That's the ultimate thing that
we need to clarify.

Look, a distributor will give
you the network, it will give

you the customer base, it will
do whatever, but it will also

give you a portfolio when you
don't have it and they will

associate your brands.
To other brands that are doing

similar things and that will be
able to build that craft or that

trendy association in a category
that you're not playing part

with, right.
So you are going to have a much

stronger proposition for that
bar right now?

Obviously that comes with a
payoff with something that

you're sacrificing, which is
100% time, right?

It goes back to big fish in a
small pond or small fish in a

big pond, right.
So I think it becomes part of it

becomes as much as strategic as
it is a financial decision,

right?
And I go back to talking about

big brands, big companies here I
think very often.

The decision to have an old team
and a known team becomes just of

whether it's been approved or
not, right?

But there are countries where
having your sales team might

never pay off.
But just to keep the brand up

there, you do it just because
you want to have 100 people,

100% people focus on your
brands.

And there are other places with
companies which only one brand

that will never be able to have
the cloud unless the brand is

really, really that big, right.
You need to be able to learn to

work with distributors or to
have a lot of money to be able

to pay the team to the team to
yourself.

And when you look at the big
companies, I think most of the.

Famous 34 big companies are not
are usually very bad at working

with distributors and they try
to impose their way and then

when you start to look at some
of the other, some of them are

also in the top four or five.
But for example, I think that

Brown former historically is a
company that has worked very

well with distributors in Europe
and strategically they made a

decision.
That they were going to go

through distributors.
So they work hard at perfecting

that system from how do you
choose one, how do you make sure

it works and how do you turn it
into successful partnership that

is beneficial for everybody.
And I think other companies who

have been much easier gone into
the investment of paying for a

sales force, they see the
distributor as only.

A temporary way to having their
sales force and they don't

invest the time and the effort
to make the relationship work.

That is the ultimate thing and
it's crucially important.

I always bring the example of,
you know, like the the divorces.

No, like those people like that,
divorced 345 times.

And then it's just like it's
always the wife's fault or the

husband's fault.
And it's about aligning the

journey, You know, what do you
want from that marriage?

You know, what do you want from
life?

What do you want?
You know from family and and

because otherwise you're keeping
on changing.

I've seen hundreds of examples
of going directly going with

distributors.
No, we're going to go with

distributors.
No.

Then after five years they hire
their own team.

Then they fired the team after
one year.

Then they go back to the old
distributor that they divorced

from like five years before it.
It's just like, you know, calm

down, relax, think about what's
your strategy rather than fixing

it in a tactical way.
If you're changing too many

things, maybe you should, as you
say, calm down and change none

for a while.
Maybe, I mean.

Maybe you still need the
divorce.

I mean, I'm not saying that, but
Are you sure you're well off

alone?
That's the thing.

Because that's the ultimate
thing.

So.
Thanks a lot for your time.

I mean, this was a super
interesting conversation.

I mean, we could go on forever.
We we know that like probably,

like hopefully we're gonna do it
over dinner, like last time we

met in in Berlin.
I would like to give a bit of a

space to you and you know, help
the people find you and know

where to find you, your products
and how to get in touch with

you.
Thank you very much.

And I guess that a lot of the
people listening to us will not

have come across either
Novedante or Fuel.

Yet you know some of them will,
and I thank you for enjoying it

and drinking it if you're one of
the person that supports us by

buying our products.
But if you haven't heard about

us, you can.
You can find out everything

about the wonderful world of
vermouth and Prosecco and how

we're bringing the importance of
wine in the world of vermouth,

in particular with Nova de
Dante.

So that's spelled with the
number 9.

And then DDI and Dante, Dan,
te.com, follow us there for

that.
And then if you want to find out

about FIOL and what we're doing
to try to develop a world of

lifestyle in the world of
Prosecco, then go to fiol dot F

iol dot it.
So fuel dot eat, Chris, thank

you very much.
I'm looking forward to that

dinner in BCB.
I believe it's your time to pay.

So it'll be doubly good.
But so, but if you take care of

the food, I'll take care of the
drinks.

Fantastic, fantastic.
That's a deal.

We have a deal there.
Fantastic.

Thank you so much Alex, and see
you soon.

Thank you.
That's all for today.

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