016 | Brand Ambassadors, Advocacy & KPIs: how to set up the role to build demand bottom-up | Part 2/2 with Filiberto Amati from Amati & Associates (Warsaw, Poland)

Hi and.
Welcome to the Mafair Drinks

Podcast.
I'm Chris Mafair, founder of

Mafair Drinks, where we provide
the nonsense approach to

building drinks brands from the
bottom up.

I will be your host and in each
episode I will interview a

drinks builder from the drinks
and hospitality ecosystem.

In episode 15 and 16 I had the
pleasure to interview.

Philliberto Mati.
He's a growth advisor.

He has extensive spirits
experience, having spent many

years in compating the
Netherlands, Mexico and the

Caribbean and in this Arono in
Central and Eastern Europe.

He has been in both marketing
and commercial roles.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Remember that this is.

A2 part episode, so if you liked
it, feel free to listen to both

part one and two of our chat.
Listening to you talking about

brand ambassador earlier, like
advocacy and bartender's like.

What is your take on you?
You mentioned that you are a big

fan of brand ambassadors or
however people call them.

So people that are doing
actually the advocacy program

that they're in charge of
advocacy and let's say not so

number driven, let's put it this
way.

So they're not measured on
sales, but they're measured more

on other things.
So what is your take on this?

Because on this one I keep
evolving my thinking on should

they sell or?
Should they just focus on what

they do, which is driving
advocacy and not be measured on,

let's say, hard Kpi's?
What's your take on this one?

I think you name it and in the
sense they should sell without

having objectives based on Kpi's
quantitative moving cases.

Kpi's their objective should be
if you do an advocacy.

Training or program done well,
it sells OK.

If you try to measure how much
he's selling and you're trying

to give a bonus on the basis on
the number of bottles he's

selling, he's going to forget
about the advocacy program and

he's going to start pushing
cases by giving all sorts of

incentives around.
And that's an issue.

So advocacy, it's fundamental.
Training is for 9 all smaller

and medium sized brand brands.
Unless you have a Gazino Neuros

to do whatever campaign and I'm
not saying influencer campaign

anyway because whatever that
means these days it's it's

that's a whole new you know
Pandora box.

I'm not.
Going to open it.

Let's not open that please.
But any medium sized brand?

And Paris is a very well known
man.

Let's forget this mean
comparison very well.

Compare needs a lot of advocacy.
Apparel needs a lot of advocacy.

How do you do the perfect serve?
How do you get?

How do you maximize the
opportunity of every the spirits

on your list?
That requires training.

You can ask them.
To be measured, if you have

people on the on premise that do
a drug on how many bottles of

Kampari have sold, because the
first thing they're going to be

doing, they're going to take
whatever budget they have or

find money to do happy hours.
So they basically sell the dump

of the bottles at 1/4 of the
price.

Fantastic.
No way.

So you know.
So be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, whiskey is gene with the
explosion of genes vermouth

until 5-6 years ago, we
basically in the world with two

leading vermouths, which by the
way, none of the two was real

vermouth superiority, you know
because there were 45 wines and

then again we had the
Renaissance of the category.

But if I am a.
Good bartender.

How am I going to choose between
350 genes in this them?

Yeah, but what's the bartender
to sell?

Needs stories to tell, and
sometimes the stories come from

the advocacy training.
You need to feed the beast in

that sense.
Absolutely.

I've got two questions as mine.
I hope I don't forget them.

I spend a lot of time with
bartenders now here in Prague.

And I'm going to events.
I'm sitting at the bar talking

to them and I can see how they
interact with each other.

And also I can see how they
interact with brands, because

what big companies think is that
they can own the share of mind

of a bartender.
But ultimately bartenders are so

because they are free
individuals now and they can

space between brands and
categories and they can be

creative and they can.
Test and improve and do

different things, but the
feeling that I have is that if I

haven't been building the demand
before I get into the bar.

It's a bit of a useless effort
with the Sicilian tonic water or

juice or anything like that.
So if I go into a bar and I

propose my brand, that is
supposed to be the new hit and.

This person is one of the most
connected bartender is on

Instagram, is is at Bar Convent,
is at Athens bar show with Roma

Bar show at Bar Convent, Berlin,
Brooklyn.

And he has never seen my brand.
Then he's going to say what are

you doing here?
Because it's just like if I

haven't heard it, it means it's
not at all on the radar of

anybody of my circle.
So probably you have an issue

here.
So.

How do you create that demand
before you actually approach the

bars?
You do that together, you don't

do that before the real demand
you create at the moment and

even example we were with
Galvanina which is a client of

mine soft drinks, mixology,
producer, organic drinks.

We attended the Roma Bar show
launching our mixology line, and

we got a very well known
bartender in the local scene who

was doing a Bureau project with
us, a Bureau project with Delia,

Bureau project for his own
distillery partner.

And the way we got him was Okay.
We do mixology, do you have a

project?
And we knew he was the right

person because we knew he had a
project.

Where his own developing his own
distillery products let's work

together on that okay he's
developed with another bunch of

guys his own bitters selections
and he's trying to discover the

bitter and so these are our
products that work with your

bitters.
Can we develop some characters

together and that mechanic.
OK.

Which was a refer and which we
converted in a social media

campaign and in training and
tasting and then a little master

class as well.
That's what generates demand.

So of course when you go and
enter a bar before you hit them

with would you like you need to
know who you're talking to?

Yes, you.
Have to do your homework before.

You need to do your.
And as usual, you're going to do

your homework.
If you go and look for Calabrese

and suddenly show up in his bar
and his stab and you start

vomiting your commercial spill,
he's gonna because he's a

gentleman.
He's gonna smile.

Thank you, Thank you.
Yes, yes, yes.

And then couldn't wait longer to
get you the hell out of his

door.
But.

At the very beginning, you need
to find matches.

There are a lot of bartenders
who are bartenders who work on

certain projects.
They have their own things on

the side.
And how can you create value for

them on their own projects?
Because maybe that's the key.

Okay, I help you to do this.
Let's work together.

And you had the first guy and
you had the second guy and you

had the third guy.
You build demand and then you

can start developing and
focusing on your real advocacy.

But as usual, it's marketing of
121 at the beginning.

And that is the.
Demand before it becomes

marketing.
Too many, yes.

So there is that there is that
step.

What you're saying is that there
is that step that you do, let's

say that looks like it's done.
On the moment, but in reality is

actually let's say for that
person, is that on the moment?

But then for the other, the rest
of the city is created before

because you have approached this
person before approaching the

others.
And then through the network of

this person or by associating
with this person and so on, you

can then expand into the network
and you get the kind of like

seal of approval now.
And I feel that a lot of brands

don't do that and they already
start.

They go into the meeting stage
right away and then it would get

a lot of like doors on their
face.

And then I always tell people I
say what shop because you may

have done your homework and have
a fantastic list of target

occasion.
You have the the 100 outlets in

which you want to get in, but
the more you go out, the more

you are burning them.
So if you haven't done the job

before.
At some point you will reach

number 99 #100 and you've got
97, no?

So then.
Move to the next.

City, then move to the next city
and run because they are looking

for you in the previous one.
Again we got Vanina.

We did this activity with
Bergernale, which is.

A trade magazine.
Exactly in Italy, which is this

cocktail event which is changing
city and we decided let's.

Co create cocktails with some
people who are attending this

event and it gave us a lot of
flexibility in what we would do

as Galvanina.
But we got customers immediately

because once they have Co create
the event with you, absolutely

they're going to use your own
tongue to promote the cocktail

in their own outlets.
Yeah, absolutely.

And then some of their friends
reached out to us later.

Can we do the same in this
contest or can we do an event?

All of this, by the way, was
made possible not by the

marketing or commercial
department, but by the various

brand ambassadors.
Galvan in 80 major cities, which

are the guy who donor narrative
be fill the narrative, believe

in the story and tell the story.
And of course they want to make

Galvanina grow bigger, but they
are looking for opportunities,

you know not quantitatively how
many cases of Galvanina have you

moved this month?
And this one.

Agents and the wholesalers are
doing.

And one thing that I feel people
forget is that all these that we

are now saying in a moment, it
takes time because you need to

go out and have a drink and sit
at the bar and talk to the guy.

And invite him for a drink.
And you need to have that kind

of conversation and you need to
connect on social media and then

tag them and message them and go
back.

And this is like a normal social
interaction.

Flow that you do from
kindergarten to, you know, to

university.
You need to consume in their

outlets, because otherwise
they'll remember.

That and that's the thing.
And then you know you're talking

to expert that are looking at
you, how you behave in the bar.

You cannot fake it.
You cannot fake to be an entree

type of person.
They smell you right away if you

go out there with the corporate
hat on.

When you're trying to talk like
you're talking to a bank, then

they stop you right away.
So this is the thing I'm linking

back to what we were saying
before about Co creating

cocktails for example.
And this is something that I

noticed brands do wrong very
often, again because they don't

go there with the on trade
behind the bar perspective, but

they go there with the
advertising agency glasses on.

And they push their drink, their
drink strategy or their drinks,

recommended drinks, approved
drinks, signature drinks or

whatever they call it.
And they basically stuff it down

the throat of this bartender
saying like with this brand, you

have to do this brand and this
brand because it was meant to be

used in these drinks.
And very often they say, oh, you

see, working with bartenders or
working with ambassador doesn't

work.
Because they had the wrong tool

that basically sent the Navy
SEAL with the knife and fork

instead of some better
equipment.

And then they have something to
complain about this what team

that they have sent in.
Look for Gavinina.

We have developed a new drink
strategy with the paving will

based on Italian liquors.
Developed with bartenders, with

a group of bartenders local to
the Chessena Reming area, which

is where Calvinina is from and
it was going to be our big team

for development this summer.
We halted that we said we're

going to do this next year
because this year we started

with this on premise team.
For that reason we would have

put basically give these guys a
tank when these guys are really

in the first phase of
establishing a relationship.

We don't need to show the
bartender's mouth with a

drinking a very over complicated
drinking strategy if he hasn't

understood the narrative of the
brand yet.

So we say, OK, we have the tool,
let's park it, let's use next

year.
This year we focus on building a

relationship.
We need the on premise to be our

ears and our eyes and tell us
what they need from us.

What can we do for them?
What can we do with them?

Yes.
And that leads to when you were

talking about the Spritz
occasion or brands like Aperol

or Campari, like there are some
of these brands that have been.

Built on a certain occasion and
those occasion were born out of

experience.
So the let's say they didn't

create Campari and say oh
Campari is meant for Negroni.

You know like the Negroni came
after and then when they were

mixing and experimenting with
the product then it came out as

the Milano Torino and and then
the MiTo and then it all

developed but.
Then it started to be okay,

Let's focus on this drink
because this is our, you know,

flagship drink.
But I feel that a lot of these

companies, they think that they
can bypass the experience of the

on trade by creating their own
drink in the office to what you

were saying and they don't spend
enough time.

But then because this drink
doesn't work then they want to

expand and they say.
Let's not focus on one cocktail

or one occasion because we need
to appeal to much broader

audience and much more broader
category and occasions because

focusing on one single occasion
doesn't work.

So what is your experience and
what do you think is the reason

of the success of some of the
most famous brands that we're

actually focusing on one single
occasion And they are, they

still are.
I would say that first of all,

no brand, maybe 1 Jaegermaster.
It's A1 occasion strategy

because the Air Master is
successfully being able to build

that demand everywhere in the
world with the Jaeger Bomber

double drink.
But that's it.

And they built a myth around it
by the way.

So it's not just the occasion,
but it's the brand, the

mythology and so on and so
forth.

Everybody else has a multi layer
strategy.

I've been in Campari and tell
you that the Negroni, it's

basically the sophisticated
Campari drinker, drink like the

MiTo, like the Americano and the
whole 9 yards.

The question is for them.
How do you feed that

recruitment?
How do you get someone to drink

the first company which is a
difficult drink to get

acquainted with?
You need to develop a drinking

strategy that allows you to,
because it's not.

A lot of drinking strategies are
not.

The drink is started.
So how do we go to the downtown

in New York or the Wide Rabbit
in Moscow or drink on in Rome?

OK, that's the niche or the
niche?

That's the Super League.
It's like, how do we feed the

third level category?
But again, the spirits, one of

the most successful drinks, it's
a drink.

It came from the market.
When Aperol was still with

before it was sold to CNC and
then later to Campari in the

north, they had the Spritz.
In the South used to drink

Abertas Aperol with the Sony,
with Sherata.

The Sony and they were drinks
from the market.

The market, yeah.
Where Campari saw the potential

of the spritz, then they made it
international.

And they sold the narrative of
Venice and the whole 9 yards,

the appetitive, etcetera,
etcetera.

That was easy because it's not
something that created top down,

it was something that created
bottom up.

But the Jaeger bomber was
created top down and it took

them a while, but it worked
brilliantly.

So how would you say that?
Because for me like the target

occasion is very and let's say
the target drink or whatever

like your ideal drink when you
see that is built bottom up.

So when you start to see Okay,
I'm giving my brand and then the

1st 5 customers that are
starting to sell.

A case.
Per month or per week, they've

reached already a certain
threshold when they start to

tell me, like how they are
selling it and where do they see

that this brand works.
Then it starts to be a

replicable kind of experiment
and then you widen it bigger and

bigger and bigger and then it
becomes like your solo focus.

Now you talk about that Negroni
or that Negroni mescal or you

talk about Margarita for
control.

There are some brands that are
taking that lead, but it comes

from the markets.
Do you think that's the way to

build that aspiration and then
bring in the second, third?

4th tier on with that while you
are letting them use the brand

as they wish or how would you
build a scale so to say.

Okay.
First of all, the plan.

It's the only version of reality
that never happens.

You're gonna have a plan because
you need a plan.

But then reality is gonna be
slightly different, which

basically means that's why it's
so important to be in the

marketplace.
Because sometimes what works

it's utterly unexpected and you
need to focus on what works and

try to replicate what works, not
what was in the plan.

It's a learning process.
Then the question is first of

all if you need to target the
top 1% parts in the world.

You don't need a drinking
strategy.

You need a mixology advocacy
done by someone that knows about

drinks as much as they do.
If you're trying to sell a new

brand to Dante Okay, you better
know what you're talking about.

So the consumption occasion,
it's not going to be.

Oh, you're going to do this for
the ability.

They're going to tell you when
they do it now, they do it now

and why?
Okay, That's more or less the

idea.
The second part, I think is if

you are trying to create
something more scalable, you

need focus.
And the focus allows you to have

the little resources that you
have at the beginning.

To work for you, assume that you
have your plan, you failed, but

you have stumped into something
that works and it's scalable.

Then repeat that and make sure
that you can build your own

strategy around that and your
own awareness around it.

Then it's going to take you
years before you need another

drinking strategy years.
You don't need to have a very

complex thing such, but let's be
honest, companion apparel had

been around for 100 years or 80
years or something.

Vermouth has been around for 200
years as a category and their

ups and downs in the category.
The very interesting thing for

me is that Negroni now has
regained popularity and now it's

a cool drink that.
Everybody seems to be drinking

and everybody's showing off that
they've been always drinking

Negroni.
But I know the times in which I

was the only person drinking
Negroni among my entourage of

friends.
And I have to thank you,

Salvatore, my friend in
Stockholm, fellow Napoli, than

like you to reintroduce me to
the drink and then the

Americano.
But we I remember we used to

tell how to make an Americano
because otherwise we would get

an Americano coffee.
In bars in Stockholm.

And now it seems that Stockholm
is the Renaissance of the

Negroni as a drink.
So what I'm getting to is that

what I liked about Campari is
that they stick to it even when

the shares of the Negroni went
down.

But I don't know how long it it
took like 10 or 20 years of

silence before it sticked up
again.

They were still.
Doing adverse with There's no

Negroni without Campati and
there's no Americano without

Campati when nobody knew they
wanted to order a Negroni.

So there is an element of
consistency that is crucial

here.
As you said, once you define

your drinking strategy, stick to
it for as long as possible.

If you've done your homework
right and you've learned it from

the market and you know that's
what the market wants and need.

Because otherwise you're
basically just like reinventing

the wheel all the time and then
you become the drink for

everything and anything.
Yeah.

And you know, at the end of the
day, I think it's a tipping

point strategy to the extent
that you need to have lots of

consumers who are willing to
drink the Negroni to begin with,

you know, but that takes decades
to build.

Take once you have them, you
keep them.

And of course, I don't drink
Negroni all the time.

I mean, I have one Negroni, I'll
have the 2nd Negroni, and then

I'll drink something else.
And so build the drinking

strategy to have me not
switching out of Campari

entirely in that context.
So that's what happened with the

splits.
They realized that people were.

Tired of drinking The first, the
second, the third, upper spritz,

the third.
They want something stronger.

The Campari splits or the Chanel
splits, that's what happened in

terms of evolution.
But Campari, it's a huge

company.
It's a huge brand.

It's a brand was being, you
know, in Russia and in Poland

when and in Czechoslovakia back
then back.

In the day.
Before, before, people could

travel freely.
From one block to the other, so

same as this alone, no?
By the way.

So you still find, by the way,
bottles of cordial like compari,

the white one in Cuba still.
I can imagine and how would you

say just wrap this up as because
we went a little bit out of time

and sorry about that, how would
you advise let's say smaller

brands, we're discussing like
big companies now, but how would

you advise smaller brands to
maybe tap into that?

Kind of like existing occasions.
For example, when I was in New

York in the Nomad bar, I ordered
a Negroni and the guy said, have

you ever tried the mescal,
Negroni?

And I was like, no.
And this was like many years ago

and I had never tried mescal
actually.

And then I tried it and that has
become my go to drink almost all

the time.
How would you advise smaller

brands to tap into existing
occasion without reinventing the

wheel?
I think it's always a question

of you shouldn't remain the
will.

If you have a differentiating
position and relevance which

makes you suitable for that
drinking strategy or that

occasion, OK, maybe you should
remain the will as mescal ending

up in the Negro me.
Because clearly, any mescal

producer, the one thing they
don't want to be is tequila.

They don't want to end up in
margaritas for sure.

They don't want to end up in
margaritas, by the way, Tequila

doesn't want to end up in
margaritas these days, so

definitely mescals don't want
to.

So the question is, does your
offering justifies the kind of

discontinuity you know, this
being original?

Or can you work around something
which is preexisting and make it

work for you?
If you have a vodka brand or a

whiskey brand, don't try to be a
gene.

I think it's a it's a question
of trade off between being

unique and relevant.
There was a point in time when

Bacardi was doing the Mojito
commercials with the music.

It was this big mojito it you
could find.

In airports, the guy doing the
mojitos for 5 bucks everywhere.

So most emerging brands at the
mojito cocktail without drum.

Yeah.
Or they do the spritz or I've

seen spritz with all sort of
categories or and tonic or and

ginger ale.
Or you know.

Can you do something relevant
for me?

One of the freshest cocktails
that happened last year, It's

the Hugo.
Absolutely.

No, don't be a spritz.
Be a Hugo if you can, without,

of course, being completely you
know who cares about about

Camorito, to be honest with you.
That doesn't make any sense.

Exactly, but that's what when
you blindly follow trends.

That's okay, Yeah.
And that's very true.

And I think with this one we can
wrap it up.

And Filiberto, thanks a lot for
your time.

There's been a really
interesting shot, as usual, and

let us know how people can find
you.

And I give you a bit of a.
Stage for giving you your

contacts and where can people
find you and how to get They can

get in touch with you,
Filiberto.

Well, as you did, they can find
me on LinkedIn very easily.

Filiberto Marti or my consulting
firm Amati and Associates in

Warsaw.
If you Google it, you'll find

more info and more thinking
about me.

And thank you, Chris, very much.
I appreciate you taking the

time.
It's always been a pleasure.

I hope I didn't open too many
Pandora boxes for you.

No, no, I think we managed to
put the lead back on a few, but

it was very interesting.
So I hope to see you soon

somewhere live again and let's
keep in touch.

Thanks a lot.
Remember that this is.

A2 part episode, so if you liked
it, feel free to listen to both

part one and two.
Our chat That's all for today,

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