015 | Cities & Distributors: how to choose the right city and RTM to start from | Part 1/2 with Filiberto Amati from Amati & Associates (Warsaw, Poland)

Hi and welcome to the Mafair
Drinks Podcast.

I'm Chris Mafair, founder of
Mafair Drinks, where we provide

the nonsense approach to
building drinks brands from the

bottom up.
I will be your host and in each

episode I will interview a
drinks builder from the drinks

and hospitality ecosystem.
In episode 15 and 16, I had the

pleasure to interview
Philliberto Mati.

He's a growth advisor.
He has extensive spirits

experience having spent many
years in compating the

Netherlands, Mexico and the
Caribbean and in this Arono in

Central and Eastern Europe.
He has been in both marketing

and commercial roles.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, so if you liked it,

feel free to listen to both part
one and two of our chat.

Hi Philliberto, how you doing?
Very well.

Thank you.
So it will be a pleasure to have

this chat with you and for the
listeners, the funny story about

how Filiberto and I met, we met
through LinkedIn, I think 17

years ago.
I think he was yeah, 2007 and I

reached out to him because I was
looking for a job.

We connected and and since then
we have never met in person

until last year at Barkonven
Berlin.

We finally managed to meet in
person, so.

We hugged each other and we took
a picture.

And in the meantime, we realized
that we have, I don't know,

maybe 50 people in common and
friends and friends of friends.

So in the 17 years we've built
closer and closer ties.

So that's a bit of a funny story
since we're always talking about

LinkedIn and we probably know
each other from LinkedIn with

many of the listeners.
So let's dive in.

Feel better?
So you have been working for

some of the biggest brands in
the world.

You work and advise.
Also smaller brands.

What do you think is the main
difference between a big and a

small drinks brand when working
in the on trade?

I think it's the magnitude of
what you're moving in the sense

that you can deal with smaller
brands which are as happy to

place one bottle and that's a
big achievement.

One bottle in a bar and that's
an achievement to celebrate.

With companies that have much
larger size that think okay, we

can make a truckload of bottles
when we launch because we're

going to get immediate return or
listing.

I think that you can't really
compare.

It's the same industry, but it's
actually not the same industry,

smaller and larger brands in
that sense.

And what is your take on this
one because I share your view,

but at the same time I feel that
there is a lot of brands that

with their growth they've lost
sight of what the on trade is

about and they've become more
commodities like selling cases

on promotion or 2030% off in
supermarkets and they forgot

that they actually supposed to
be consuming the on trade as

well so.
A lot of time there is a bit of

unlearning and relearning.
I remember we had this

conversation in a previous
session.

What it's it's supposed to
happen in the on trade and they

go back to their basics and to
many years ago when they used to

celebrate for the one bottle
listed in one bar and they have

to actually relearn it, even
though you take for granted that

they know how to do it.
Do you have the same experience

or?
Yeah.

And by the way, if you add to
that complexity of the

geographical diversity, it gets
even more complicated than that.

Because if you look at certain
countries, you're not going to

be able to get a bottle in the
bar unless you're listed with

the wholesaler, because those
bars only buy from the

wholesaler and the first thing
the wholesaler is going to want

to know.
Once you propose the your drinks

to them is what kind of
promotion you're going to be

running, Can you match one case
every six or one bottle every

five and so on and so forth.
So I would say that it is true,

there are brands, there are
categories, there are

geographies, but the bottom line
is that what drive the following

growth is how big your margin
is.

And so I think part of the cycle
story depend on the fact that a

lot of brands see this you know
sunlight of retail expansion and

then basically sub suddenly they
need to finance it and they need

to get velocity because if they
don't get velocity they're going

to get the listed and so they
start putting a lot of

resources.
And then one day they checked

the numbers and they said, hey,
good volumes, but you know where

is the margin?
And so they go back and say, OK,

maybe on premise it's a margin
positive type of game and very

often it's so the only brand
building they can really afford,

OK.
So there are I think a number of

different directions here you
can take.

Of course there are also cases
in which basically you can't

have the same on premise
offering in the off premise

encounters which is not possible
both in soft drinks in and in

spirits.
So you know case of Prosecco you

really have even 2 Prosecco
consortium, 1 which is more off

premise driven and one which is
more.

On premise premium, on premise
focus now.

So it's completely different
approaches and products.

So I think more or less that's
what is behind that I think.

That's a very interesting you
open the Pandora box.

So we we dive in directly into a
very broad topic.

So it's very interesting what
you say and I agree with a lot

of the stuff about the
complexity that you mentioned,

but how do you see that?
Brands create demand.

You've been working for major
brands, you're advising smaller

brands in answering market.
And what I felt is that when I'm

studying and digging is that a
lot of brands end up in front of

people that don't want to buy.
They rushed into capturing

demand, but they haven't created
the demand upfront.

What is your take on this one?
Unfortunately, there is a lot of

people.
Who are very good at selling

whatever they sell.
And so they ultimately create

demand, they say build brands
and they ultimately move cases.

And that's the issue I think.
How do you build a framework

which works more or less every
time?

First of all, you're not going
to have any sales unless you

have some distribution.
So you need to hit the ground

and.
You know your field and move the

products you need to have your
bottle in a bar, but that's the

first step.
Unfortunately, a lot of experts

or a lot of teams, a lot of
people with experience in the

industry, that's the only
activity they focus on and they

they think the magic happens,
but it's a value chain.

Then the next step is.
How do you promote and move the

bottle from the shelf, from the
back bar where it's getting a

bit dusty and you make sure that
the bottle gets poured as much

as possible?
Based on my experience and I

might be wrong, love and care.
It's what makes the difference

between how fast and how good
you grow in the at the very

beginning as a small beverage
brand.

And their love and care depends
on how much passion your

salespeople can transmit to the
most important people in the

industry, which are bar owners,
bartenders, bar managers, and so

on and so forth.
Because that passion has the

ability to become viral and it
becomes their passion and if

they show commitment to your
brand.

Regardless of what the
incentives is because they like

the proposition, they like the
story, they like the derivative

and of course they like the
liquid because that's also very

important.
Then that's what makes the

difference at the beginning.
That's what gets you to have

conversation and scale.
You and I have discussed very

much show this in the past and
worked on projects together

about the fact that sometimes
you need to.

Slightly look a little bit
bigger than what you are and

then add the the various pieces
of the puzzle to the question.

Yes, absolutely.
And listening to you, it makes

me think like that.
One of the biggest challenges

that I see around the world of
drinks is the ability for the

brand owner and the inner team
to translate that love and care

and passion to the other.
Links of and connections of the

drinks ecosystem.
I see that a lot of time like

they struggle explaining that
first from the founder to the

people they hired and then from
the people they hired.

How do they manage to translate
that to the people that at many

degrees of separation from them
are not going to be?

Thinking about Okay, Feliberto
launched this brand because his

grandmother had a fantastic
recipe.

So how do you see this happening
and what's your experience on

this?
I would say that the big hurdle

is sometimes the root to market.
It's made of people who are

going to care so little about
you because think about Italy,

Italy, you have to have
independent agents.

Who fulfill orders for the
wholesalers and these guys are

usually independent freelancers
or traders so to speak and they

literally are a muscle for you
okay.

But these guys have a portfolio
so they can dedicate to you so

little time especially when you
are so small at the beginning

so.
The challenge depending on the

market, focus on the route to
market and make sure that each

one of the important pieces of
the chain are well oiled,

because otherwise that's never
going to move.

So that's number one then for
me, which is why I've always

been a fond of brand
ambassadors.

You will need someone who can
tell your storytelling and can

share that passion.
The agent is not going to be

that guy.
The founder, cofounder or

whatever team are usually at the
beginning.

They don't brand ambassadors.
First, because they don't have

the resources to to be able to
hire a fulltime ambassador.

Second, because they whoever
they're going to be hiring at

the beginning is not going to
have half of the stamina or the

passion and the knowledge about
the brand and the product that

these guys have.
So I would say for me that's the

key.
It's always start with the value

chain, but then focus on your
listings, your narrative

consumption occasions, and then
you're going to make sure in

this way that you hit the right
target, you hit the right

occasion and you have your
right.

For the perfect self, because
with that focus, which the agent

again is not gonna happen,
you're sure you do moving in the

right direction and the one
glass is gonna become a bottle

and the one bottle is gonna
become several bottles and the

cases and so on and so forth.
That's very interesting how you

line that up and listening to
you and I know that we share.

Common, let's say, pragmatic
approach to brand building.

We are very brand building
driven, but at the same time we

know how tough it is and how at
the end of the day show me the

money.
It's what matters, not in terms

of margins and in terms of
pragmatic approach.

So what do you think is the
approach for a brand in a market

when they are launching in their
own geography for example?

I see a lot of brands.
That want to run before they can

walk.
I get like sales pitch through

LinkedIn about brands like we
are selling already in 10

markets and we want to expand to
20 markets next year and 30

markets in three years time and
and so forth.

Now and then I feel that when I
dig into the data, they already

struggling with their first
market.

What do you think is the issue
there?

How can they solve it and what
would you advise to them?

First of all I will tell them
don't use your investors desk

for commercial purposes to begin
with, which I see all the time.

By the way, I think that the
investors at the end of the day,

they want to know how big the
pie is and what how big the size

of your piece of the pie is
going to be, which is why a lot

of gin are.
Attracting lots of investors, a

lot of new whiskeys are
attracting a lot of investors

because huge buy growing, you
know globally it's going to be

the new whatever, but that's not
how your route to market locally

works first of all, because if
you talk about money and you

don't have money, the various
gears I was referring to will

want to be shown money as well.
And that will be the most

inefficient launch ever for you.
If you are a CEO, a founder was

looking for money to grow,
that's great.

But who's going to be in your
team doing the narrative pitch?

And how do you start?
First of all, forget about

national and even regional
strategies.

What's your neighbor?
What's the neighbor where you

can serve yourself?
And by the way, also non tribal

point of view.
If you are in Italy and you want

to build a brand, you'd better
be in Rome and Milan.

Because starting from how many
brands do you know that started

in Turin and became national?
Nothing against Turin, but how

many brands do you know that
started in Turin and became

national?
1.

OK.
And it was like a couple of 100

years ago?
Probably exactly.

Even within the vermouth
category, which is Vermouth

Superiority, Torino, they're
made in Turin, but when they

start their narrative and their
route to market pitch rolling,

it's never in Turin.
No.

OK, so there is also.
There are adoption curves, what

we call in marketing.
When we talk about early

adopters and so on and so forth,
of course you need to think

about what's your target, where
they move, where they go around.

But the early adopters are not
everywhere all the time.

Of course, you're going to find
certain early adopters, you

know, especially in the premium
segment in Portofine and

Maronelli, Antie and so on and
so forth.

But during the big season, and
because they're probably people

from Milan or Rome, so that's
very important because you need

to have a local neighbor
strategy and probably the first

deliveries are going to be you
with a bottle in your hand,

begging a guy to put the bottle
on a back bar and then focus on

a local route to market.
For me, focus.

It's the name of the game.
You don't have a lot of

resources, then you really need
to hit hard with what you have,

and that means limit yourself to
a very specific geographic area

which has the potential then to
be a platform for the future, by

the way, because you could
become the best gene in

Kanikati.
But that doesn't mean that you

can have then a platform to
become national.

Let's look at this from a
different angle.

I fully agree with you.
I just developed a little bit of

a different take on this when it
comes to smaller brands from

smaller towns.
COVID as a AS probably affected

this.
So maybe before COVID I would be

100% with you on it.
Now I'm let's say 80% with you

on the big cities.
There's been a bit of a diaspora

of people going back to their
town like to smaller towns and

also because of there's a lot of
brands and I'm thinking for

example the UK as an example.
There are some countries in

which the geography is much more
scattered across the nation.

And sometimes I'm approached by
people that launched a gene

brand or another like a vermouth
brand in a smaller town and they

directly want to approach
London.

Or they directly want to
approach Milan.

So if you have the muscles and
some funds I would advise them

as you do go directly into Milan
or or London.

But then I had the feeling they
lack the relevance of their

homeland or their home turf if
they are selling their dream.

So today's example if it's a
gene from Sicily and then they

are directly sold in Milan, but
then.

When I go on holidays in Sicily,
I don't find this brand.

Then all of a sudden it becomes
like a bit of a weird situation.

How would you advise them on on
to say okay, like actually own

Sicily or own Veneto or the
wider region of where you are

born and where you can actually
do the last mile yourself before

you venture into this?
To articulate better like this

discussion because otherwise it
sounds like one against each

other, like the big city or the
smaller city.

But actually it's the same
thing, just with different

stages at different take.
Yeah, OK.

First of all I would answer your
question, but then I have a

second point as well, which is
the counter trip side example.

So the first is if you can, of
course you need to be local.

If your aspiration is to build a
national and an international

brand, okay, you have 2-3 shots
at becoming debt in the first

3-5 years.
If you want to do it in 17 years

and to keep and you have the
resources of doing it in 17

years, that's a different story,
Okay.

But a lot of people, even if
they're not looking for

investors.
They want to be somewhere in the

next three to five years, Okay
in those cases.

And a lot of people me and you
have spoken with in the last

three years, probably, you know
there is a lot of them.

And yes, you want to have a
presence in Sicily, okay, but

you don't want to end up like.
And there are famous, very

famous soft drink beverages in
Sicily, which are sold in

Sicily, nowhere else in Italy
and have a little bit of experts

in the UK and the US.
That's it.

You go to Milan and you ask do
you have this drink?

Experts said they don't produce
those any longer.

So there is also that risk.
Why I'm saying that because.

The UK, it's one specific
country because of the size,

because of the dynamic, where
it's actually easy to start a

business or a brand in
Manchester and Liverpool and

then get to London later.
In fact, I would say get to

London as late as possible with
beverages because the cost of

running an operation in London
could capsize you completely.

But in the Netherlands, there is
a difference in IT rate if you

start the brand in Rotterdam and
Amsterdam instead of Arnhem and

Groningen.
Even in France, that's true.

In certain Scandinavian markets,
less so.

But you know that you've been in
Sweden for many years, you know

that.
Hitting the capital city in

those markets, it's critical to
give you credibility and

national level.
It's country specific.

If it's one of those countries
in which the capital city is the

make it or break it, or if there
are some other localities that

can play a role.
In Spain it's married and

Barcelona you could be the king
of Gene and Civilia.

Literally nobody knows who you
are and it's a big city civilia.

So there is a country specific
dynamic in terms of if you want

to have an accelerated part
where you can build Okay and the

relevance of course if you have
time and you say I'm going to do

it in my own pace, which is not
the case when you have investors

and if you decide you want to
have an Italian strategy and you

have investors then.
It boils down on how successful

and how quickly you can be
successful in Roman Milan,

whether you are from Sicily,
Rimini or Pulia.

So there is another level that
there is another layer that

needs to come into place, which
is the time frame listening to

you and the level of if you have
investors or if you are

bootstrapping and you don't have
any hurry and you are doing it

as a as a more of a passion
project.

Exactly.
And again, the partes in Italy,

the France, Boston, which are
Dianic and distribution

companies which are critical
route to market elements for all

beverages, alcoholic and
alcoholic beer, soft drinks,

water, they are a key player and
of course they have regional

level and they have national
levels.

You need to be on the rare
screens of the ones who are in

Milan and Roma to become
national.

You're not gonna build it just
bottom up by being everywhere

but in Rome and Milan.
No, absolutely.

Or Paris Marcel Lyon.
Yeah.

And how do you build the
relevance from your experience

with those big players?
Because one of the things that

I'm always asked is which kind
of route to market?

Should I go with a small one
that gives you more focus or

with a big one in which I have
very little focus but they can

give me the wider footprint?
What would you advise on this?

Matter, I'm going to be actually
pretty arrogant and which is I

think there is a better way
which is depends on your life

stage at the very beginning if
you have a chance of going into

this one big wholesaler.
You need to ask yourself, will I

have any time and money
resources to build independently

the demand that requires for me
to be successful in that because

the listing is the first step,
whereas a smaller wholesaler, a

smaller distributor with the
focus and dedicated team, not

the national rich.
But they know their customers

and you feed their customers.
Now how many times have we

discussed about it?
They know their customer, they

feed their customer and it's
someone who you can actually

transmit your passion and they
can grasp that 510% and put that

510% of your passion in selling
your brand.

I think it's a much better job,
honestly.

Of course, if you have the money
to be in a big wholesaler.

And to have seven on premise
executives who are doing the

passion narrative job.
So the indirect selling great if

you have the money.
You have to be able to feed the

beast otherwise.
We're talking about hundreds of

thousands of EUR a year for an
operation.

If you have an operation of four
on premise guys in Europe, you

need to hire them, pay taxes on
them.

Give them tablets, training
cars, the whole nine, yeah.

So depending on the country
we're really talking about

between anything between 40,000
and €100,000 all included cost

because the cars leasing doesn't
pay itself.

So one needs to pay for the
lease.

So do you have that kind of
money grade and you have time

because by the way in the 1st 12
months.

Whatever man you put, you're
going to think you're losing

because you're not going to
reach any clinical master of the

year.
Absolutely, absolutely.

How do you see brands struggling
with working with wholesalers in

your experience?
We're talking about distributors

like there's always a
misunderstanding between

importers and wholesalers of
they both call distributors, but

then in the end they are at
different levels.

And a lot of people like do
stuff that is good for

distributors, but they actually
mean importers and they forget

that actually they don't go
direct and they go through

wholesalers and vice versa.
They are used to work with

distributors, wholesalers and
they don't know what it takes to

work with importers in another
market.

So what's your experience with
this?

Well, in fact, I think that
there is a lot of confusion.

In fact, I always ask, so is
this the guy who buys?

Trailers or containers and sells
pilots or is the guy who buys

pilots and sells cases.
That's how I understand where

they are, to be honest, because
that's what makes the

difference.
So I think that big brands,

small brands have one big
mistake always.

They think that getting an
importer, A distributor, it's

the end game.
That actually, it's the

beginning of your headache.
It's not the end of the journey,

that's the point, because it's a
necessary condition, but it's

not sufficient.
Yeah.

Then you need to start working
with them and at the end of the

day there is no magic recipe.
Visit the market, Listen to

them.
If you have access to

quantitative data, great,
because we'll avoid you being

lost in a But you know nobody's
drinking this any longer or

there is a huge trend in this
flavor, and there is actually no

proof whatsoever that that's
true.

But I'm a big fun of qualitative
research.

Get in a bar drink, Talk to the
bartender.

See what they say.
Hear what they hear.

Let them tell you what's
happening on the street, because

they'll know more about what's
happening on the street than

anybody else in the beverage
industry and.

I think that's a key aspect to
do go do that and engineer it

inside see opportunities.
Is visibility at point of sales

really very important?
Do you need to be on the menu,

can you be on the menu, what can
you do?

Can you promote their own
consumption and so on and so

forth.
I have one promotion which

whenever I am in the new market
or also with a new client, I

always try to run which is.
Get a bartender, OK, an extra

bartender for 2-3 hours a day
who can only serves your

cocktails and basically with a
dynamic where consumers buy the

cocktail from the bar, you make
it for them, so for them it's

actually, you know, cheaper to
make and it's extra income and

it always works.
Because you are helping the bar

in a peak hour to make more
money.

By what?
By literally selling your own

product.
Absolutely.

Very simple and usually works.
Then of course you can play

with.
And of course if it's a charming

cocktail, bartenders,
mixologists, whatever the name

of the year is because it keeps
changing.

Some of them have a ego like a
house, but they tend to be

pretty Chucky and pretty good at
what they do.

And that's a great way of
selling if you try this gene

tonic, but with this tonic and I
have an herbal tonic for this

gene and I have a shall be
atonic for this other gene And

then when you start doing that,
by the way.

The bar 500 meters down the
street that's going to conduct

and say, hey, I saw that
promotion when I'm going to get

it.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, so if you liked it,
feel free to listen to both part

one and two of our chat.
That's all for today.

So thank you for joining me on
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remember that brands are built

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