How To Own A Drinking Occasion And A Moment In The Consumer's Mind | Bottom-Up Cut #003
From a brand point of view, the three things I always talk about which make it really different are, first of all, Botivo is not a moderation brand. It's a pleasure brand. That's been really clear from day one. We never talk about dry jam. We never talk about Subtober.
Imme Ermgassen:We very much talk to the world of pleasure, which I can talk about later as to why. The second thing is that we're trying to bring craft into a category that we think has enough of it. When you look at other drinks brands that consumers or trade really care about, it's the stories around them, around the maker or the provenance or the ingredients or the process that makes both trade and consumers really emotionally engaged with those. And I think because the non alcoholic drinks world is so new and so many of the drinks are are made in fragrance houses or in factories, there are very few stories that people can really attach themselves to. And I think what that means is that the category feels quite cold.
Imme Ermgassen:I think people don't feel the same way about non alcoholic brands the way they do about a whiskey or a gin or a wine. So what we're trying to do at Botivo is bring that craft back into it. It's all handmade, no flavorings in the essence is a real long process. That's all about creating the best flavors. It's because that's what creates the best flavors.
Imme Ermgassen:And the third thing which makes it different is it's a very powerful liquid because of the process. Actually, we use it or our customers or consumers in trade use it in alcohol as well. So one in four of our customers at home will drink it with alcohol and they'll use it to add botanical layers to drinks, whether it's a Negroni or popping into a tequila and soda. It's quite a different positioning because while we are primarily a non alcoholic drink at first, once people start going deeper into the brand and building that relationship, they start using it within the alcoholic space as well. And it's quite unique.
Imme Ermgassen:The flavor profile isn't a mimic. It's a totally new flavor that almost takes people a few seconds to get their head around when they try it because they want to put it in a box, but they can't.
Chris Maffeo:I was also very intrigued by the brand because, you start to try to put into boxes and you want to say, okay, but it's not alcoholic, but it's a bitter now. But what is it now? And this confirms what I usually talk about, about building a category before building a brand. Because we tend to always think about categories as the good old categories, ramp up, cargine and so on. Especially when you go out of these high alcohol or high proof categories, then it gets into the others, like the liquor, aperitif, and all these groups that are beautiful.
Chris Maffeo:They are in a way like the make it or break it of cocktail culture, but then they get relegated to let's put it on the others kind of thing. And how do we bring it to be the protagonist of the story?
Imme Ermgassen:Yeah. I think the world of malalcoholic drinks still feels quite murky and no one really understands the category. There's so many subgroups. There's so many people trying to fit it into boxes that already exist when actually there's a whole stream of new products that don't fit in those boxes. I think one of the things that we did when we first started was we called the TiVo slow sipping botanical and you'll notice that that's changed to big sipping Botanical Aperitivo.
Imme Ermgassen:And the reason why we launched with the rebrand a year and a half ago with Slow Sipping Botanicals initially was that we didn't want to put it into a box straight away because it was a very new flavor experience and product. We purposefully left a bit ambiguous and we're like, so it's a little botanicals. Like that's a new thing and people didn't quite know, you know, where to put it and we wanted to enter the market that way. But then what happened over time as your brand matures is that you suddenly realize consumers need to know a clear occasion for when it's drunk. And yeah, it was great as an initial, we're different, but then it got to the point where you realize having a clear occasion is more important than proving that you're different.
Chris Maffeo:And this is is very interesting.
Imme Ermgassen:We changed it to Big Sipping botanical aperitivo for a couple of reasons. One was to give people that occasion, consumers, give trade that occasions. They knew this is an aperitivo product. And the product was different enough to stand on its own and not necessarily just be an imperative. But the second thing was that we also developed our brand voice a lot more and our brand personality and our brand's very playful.
Imme Ermgassen:It's super craft, but it's also super playful and sort of bold and suddenly slow sipping didn't feel appropriate for the direction that we had moved in. And actually the idea of more and big sipping felt much more in line with our brand. And I guess then take it a step further to think about that occasion. One of the biggest challenges with non alcoholic products is that no one knows when to drink it or when it's for. You need to own a moment.
Imme Ermgassen:Then we develop this idea of the yellow hour, our brand ownable consumption moment. And the yellow hour is about us trying to own that aperitivo moment. It's a play on the golden hour, which for me is one of those moments that everybody has an emotional reaction to, right? Everyone knows, you when you talk about the golden hour, you're imagining the lighting, you're imagining being with your friends, you're imagining transitioning to that new part of the day when things are a bit more exciting on your own terms. And so we wanted to really bring that moment, but with a language that us as a brand was relevant to.
Imme Ermgassen:And obviously yellow has been at the core and forefront basically of our brand from day one.
Chris Maffeo:It's very visible. I love that color. I'll show you my new jacket that is exactly that color.
Imme Ermgassen:Yeah. For me, stickability is the most important thing about our brand. You know? And I think owning a color is a really important And part of particularly on a bar, right, on a back bar, I think we get photos, you know, sent to us every day of people seeing on a back bar and taking a photo because it pops and it's that yellow wax top. And that has always been a massive priority from day one.
Imme Ermgassen:Like what makes people remember stuff? And it's either it's sensory, right? It's like a smell or it's Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:And I mean, I like about this, let's say my understanding of the yellow hour is that it takes on the golden hour, but then because you're making it yellow, it's not really part of the day. There's no certain time of the day where you can actually bring it to life. And being non alcoholic, then basically you can even move it a little bit earlier in the day and then people can switch on into this yellow hour where people can say, okay, now is the time. And they don't have to wait for sunset or golden colors to make it happen.
Imme Ermgassen:I think it's about communicating the vibe without a time attached to it. And what's interesting about Bativo is that we don't see it as an alcohol alternative internally as a business. The reason for that is I got involved with Bativo because I tried the liquid and it's old brand before we redid it and got obsessed with it. Like I was just drinking it literally all the time, like lunch, dinner, you name it. I've never engaged with an non alcoholic category before.
Imme Ermgassen:It was my entry point into the category. And I think the more we talk to our consumers, the more we realize that most of them have actually entered the category directly to Vertivo because there aren't people that are drinking Vertivo when they wanna drink, they're just drinking Vertivo across different times because they just think it's delicious. So it's quite a different mindset from, oh, I wanna drink a glass of wine. Oh, I can't have it. I'm gonna have a placebo.
Imme Ermgassen:Actually, people are just choosing to drink it because it's a delicious part of their repertoire of drinks.
Chris Maffeo:How did you get to the aperitivo occasion? Was it like what you found more interesting or what you have always thought? Or was there like some confirmation from consumers that that's how they were actually drinking it out of all the other occasion where they were drinking it.
Imme Ermgassen:So Sam, my cofounder, created the product because he loves the the aperitif. Like, TiVo came about in an unusual way because Sam has another business called Ram Rammer, and they create the drinks from scratch for parties. They did like the royal wedding, Helen Harris's wedding, Kate Moss, you name it. It was all born in this world. Sam was asked to create something from scratch, which was nonalcoholic, but really big on flavor, all natural, no preservatives, no flavorings, etcetera, for these events.
Imme Ermgassen:And he was the one that came up with the aperitif was what he really loved within the category. And so when he was playing around, it was very much like his style of drink. And then that occasion came from the liquid. I'm a big believer that the liquid and the brand have to go hand in hand. You know, you can't develop one without the other.
Imme Ermgassen:And the brand that we've created was inspired by the liquid and the liquid was inspired by Sam who loved Perique.
Chris Maffeo:Let's talk about that for a second, because you mentioned neism as a concept or as a type of consumer. And everybody listening to the podcast knows my hate for target consumers as a term, not for consumers themselves. But did you have that kind of consumer in mind in that moment? Tell me more about the target consumer and target location, which is the thing that I usually talk about. I'd like to hear what you think about that in your firsthand experience with the brand.
Imme Ermgassen:Yeah, totally. I think for me, when you build a brand, you have to think about different things. You have to think about what's happening in culture. You have to think about what's happening in the category and how you can rub up against it. You have to think about who your consumer is and sort of how they fit into that wider landscape and also your brand or your liquid and what you can authentically claim with the type of liquid that you created.
Imme Ermgassen:I think for us from the beginning, was very clear starting with the liquid that the liquid's a very kind hedonistic liquid. Like it's very rich, it's very powerful. It's not about compromise or it's not watered down. It's very much like it snaps you around the face. And when we think about the brand and how it came from that from day one, as I mentioned, we're not a moderation brand, we're a pleasure brand, right?
Imme Ermgassen:And a pleasure brand means that you're adding these people experiences, you're decadent, you're opulent, you're full of like more stuff. And for us, the consumer very much came out of that because I think when most narcotic drinks, when they're rooted in moderation, the tendency is to go for consumers that do moderate. So it could be people that are really into health and well-being or people who are also super curious or people who are moderating their behaviors. And I think where we're slightly different is that our consumer is the opposite. Our consumer are pleasure seekers because the liquids are pleasurable.
Imme Ermgassen:I totally agree with you. We don't do segmentation of so and so is 35 and loves cooking or she's 40 and has two kids and lives in the suburbs. That stuff for me is really dated. It assumes that people of different age groups are really different from each other. What I believe is that there's a universal mindset in really great brands that holds people together.
Imme Ermgassen:In our situation, it was about pleasure seekers. Our consumer is a pleasure seeking consumer. They love the way food and drinks are made. They're foodies. They love stories of provenance.
Imme Ermgassen:They love craft products. They love discerning taste profiles. They're curious about traveling in the world because they're hedonistic about life. They wanna live life to the full. And that's the mindset that the brand talks to which connects with people.
Imme Ermgassen:And for me, it's not about an age or a life stage. It's about how you feel and the emotions that you connect with about that brand.
Chris Maffeo:I'm having a lot of debates about this with other guests or with people, and it's very difficult to explain it somehow sometimes because it's like, yeah. But, you know, there's still consumers. Okay. There's still consumer, but it's like they're looking for a certain type of thing rather than they are a certain box. You can put them in a box.
Chris Maffeo:Manifestation of that, let's say, Adamism, maybe it could be in a castle, in a manor house in the British countryside, or it could be in a villa around the bonfire, but it's still hedonism. You approach two different type of people. Why do you communicate only for a certain group while actually the whole thing is about I mean, in your case, hedonism. To build on this, how do you bring this light? I follow your Instagram and on LinkedIn, I always get these yellow pictures and then I say, oh, yeah.
Chris Maffeo:You see much coming. But how does that comes to life in terms of bringing that position into social media creating demand, but also to the trade then into understanding where to sell? So I guess the the two different questions.
Imme Ermgassen:Yeah. I think that it goes back with the brand world and the product itself. With trade, the the liquid is super rich and thick and flavorful. You don't need much of it. There's 20 drinks in the bottle.
Imme Ermgassen:You just put a little bit in. That vibe of the brand and that hedonism comes through a liquid. From the brand world that we created, if you've been on the Instagram, it's obviously the yellow, which is very vibrant. But we worked closely to build 24 characters, which are central to this world. They're written or they're they're drawn by this amazing artist who's Bulgarian, who lives in Barcelona actually called Rosalina Berkova.
Imme Ermgassen:And I've always loved her art because she creates these amazing banquet scenes and they're always loads different types of characters and they've just got huge personality to them. And whenever you see the banquet, always think, oh god, I wish I was at that party. But it's got a very hedonistic vibe to it, but also very artisanal because it's all hand drawn, which is what our brand's all about. It's super craft, but also super hedonistic. And so worked really closely with Roz to bring this world to life.
Imme Ermgassen:Part of that was ensuring that it felt really decadent and really abundant. And that's not just about the vibe, it's also about the characters. I know it's 2024, we're London based brand and I think it's really important to bring all different types of characters to life. So we've got different sexes, different genders, different races, different sizes, different ages, all in that brand world. Everyone's together having an amazing time.
Imme Ermgassen:And every time you look at all those illustrations, move to something new because you're kind of discovering something which is like a beautiful surprise. For me, there's sort of that brown world is what gives people the vibe and what connects to people and gives it that pleasure seeking, hedonistic vibe. But the liquid reflects that because it is so powerful and unexpectedly so.
Chris Maffeo:Wow. Basically, everybody kind of feels welcomed because they can see a representation of themselves in there's high chances that you are one of those twenty twenty four people.
Imme Ermgassen:Exactly. The idea I did in brief was like everyone needs to see themselves or one of their friends in it. And that's exactly like welcomingness is one of our brand values. Brands feel quite exclusive in the category or feel quite stripped back. And actually the idea is that we call it everybody gets a glass kind of internally.
Imme Ermgassen:So it's this sort of world of everyone gets a glass of a TV, which is obviously a premium product, but the idea is everyone should be able to look at it and feel like they're licensed.
Chris Maffeo:And I I remember there was a LinkedIn post that you posted some time ago about consumers that you were surprised, like, people had in mind of what the boto type of person was in terms of drinking and then what he actually was. And the beauty of having an e commerce is that you can actually see exactly who's buying it and who's drinking. So was that confirming your idea that actually it's all sort of people rather than a specific target consumer?
Imme Ermgassen:I think when people see our brand and it's quite youthful spirit, I think people assume our main consumer, 28 to 14 or 30 to 40, it's sort of quite young. And actually who's buying our bottles are 73%, 45 plus. If you look at the ones that are buying and drinking in the home, when we talk to our stockists, much younger people are drinking in bars and in restaurants. But what that tells me is that idea around communicating a mindset is resonating because it's got the whole spectrum of people. Young people probably aren't drinking at home because the price point's prohibitive.
Imme Ermgassen:And that's a format challenge which we were thinking about for our next innovations. But the point is that even if you behave with that youthful spirit, people who are 65 are resonating with it as well. And it cuts across all those different kinds of people. So I think that that just kind of reiterated to me that people are resonating with the brand of all ages.
Chris Maffeo:That's interesting because what you are bringing to the story now, it's also like segmentation on channels, no, on occasions that maybe some people can get it more like on a home consumption occasion and probably they are a little bit older because maybe they're having a proper dinner rather than like a 20 year old having mates at home. While people our age, like, they would do like a proper dinner, then they want to have something special for that kind of occasion. When people go out, what stockists and people are telling you is that it's actually a little bit younger. It's very interesting. There's a concept that I'm bringing up lately that I call it the bottom up trade and the top down trade rather than on and off in terms of brand building on a channel.
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