Let's start talking about whiskey because that's the thing that got me to know you at least. How do you think whiskey brands start? Because the the liquid is so important in all categories, but especially in whiskey, I mean, it's plays a major role in differentiating brands from each other. What do you think? Does it start from the brand world or does it start from the liquid?
André De Almeida:I think ultimately the liquid has to be the number one because if you want to sell another bottle and not just sell the first bottle, then liquid has to be first and foremost, you know, especially given what consumers look for and what people out there look for when it comes to whiskey. But you can't deny that the brand, the packaging, it's important given that people buy with their eyes first. But I would certainly say in terms of importance, liquid comes first if you want to repeat business, repeat purchase, and therefore that would be first in my hierarchy of importance.
Chris Maffeo:And what do you think? I mean, like the biggest there is a lot of, of course, like competition and differentiation and let's call it however we we prefer. But, know, there is something that in terms of liquid, you know, what is the most important thing for you that recruits people into the whiskey category? Is it a category differentiation like Irish, Scotch, American, New World, or is it a liquid or is it the cask? What are the things that come into play more importantly for, let's call it like the average consumer, not the I'm not talking about the whiskey connoisseur because that's more of a secondary step.
André De Almeida:Yeah. I mean, whiskey itself is obviously a top level category, right, for grain based distillates, whether you're talking about Scottish, Scotch, Irish, American, all that that is, is obviously a national kind of regulation to specify what is and what isn't allowed in the production of those products. But in terms of importance, it will be taste profile. Taste profile will be what's important for consumers, accessibility to that liquid, and obviously the occasion. It's something that's equally important for consumers drinking whiskey.
Chris Maffeo:In your experience, do people know, you know, the average consumer? Do they understand the differences between the different categories? Yeah. Or is it like a big chunk of like, okay, this is whiskey?
André De Almeida:A lot of consumers, especially new consumers into whiskey, sometimes they can just see as one category, you know, whiskey. And therefore sometimes you meet people who say that they don't like whiskey, for example, when they've tried a specific example. But the reality is whiskey comes in all kinds of shapes and forms when it comes to liquid and to taste profiles. And that's why I've always encouraged any of my friends or people that I've come across who say they don't like whiskey to try to experiment more whiskeys because the reality is, and I'm a firm believer in it, that there's something out there, there's a whiskey out there for every consumer. It's just a question of finding which one is right for you.
André De Almeida:The other thing you have to remember is that a lot of consumers come from maybe drinking beer or wine or categories where the ABV is also a lot lower and you're talking about spirits here. Whisky is a higher ABV product. So if you're trying to drink, especially if you're drinking it neat or just with a little bit of ice or water, clearly is going to be a bit challenging initially for some of those consumers because, you know, they're not used to drink something that strong.
Chris Maffeo:I remember myself, to be honest, like when I think the first whiskey I tried, it must have been a Laphroaig. Oh, yeah. Back in the days. So I I started like the, you know, quite with a quite challenging, let's say, distinctive taste on many categories. For example, even in beer, I've noticed so in beer, wine, and and whiskey, for my taste profile at least, I like to go full on on, let's say, what taste can be.
Chris Maffeo:So for example, I mean, I'll I remember drinking red wines with a lot of wood in it, or IPAs with a lot of hops in it or, you know, a Laphroaig with with peats. Yeah. Yeah. Because the moment that you at least this was for me. Like, the moment that you are challenged by the category, then I decide, okay, I go full on and then I go backward and then I I build my way into into that.
Chris Maffeo:And I don't know how it is for other consumers that, you know, if they go more in little steps or or actually this challenging taste can actually help because it it covers a little bit because, you know, for red wine, the wood is covering the rest. You know? So if you don't actually like wine, you know, like and and the same thing could be with whiskey. You know? You you focus on the peat.
Chris Maffeo:You know? I I know this, for example, a lot of people, like, prefer mezcal to tequila. So because of the smoke. And they say, no. Actually, I don't drink tequila, but I drink mezcal.
Chris Maffeo:Yeah. So sometimes it's also like the first encounter maybe, like that got a bit of a challenge and then you go back.
André De Almeida:Yeah, although equally that first encounter, if it's something as you say, a Laphroaig or a Noctomore, if anything, it can actually also act as a deterrent. It can actually put people off the product, right? I think the thing to remember is everyone's journey is going to be a different one into whisky. Some people go in through a blend or something which they think in their mind is smoother And I know that people that make whiskey don't necessarily like to use the term smooth to define their drink, but because they want something that's accessible, that they can drink easily and they can enjoy, generally find is that people that once they've come into the whisky, a lot of people will move towards the exploration of flavors. So they will look for products which may be smoky, like you said, you know, peated, or it may be some they look for products which have been finished in different types of casks, maybe ex sherry or ex port because they want some of those dried fruit notes.
André De Almeida:So again, it really depends on how you've come in. Some people will be like yourself where they are looking for those more extreme flavor profiles. But there is no one single journey. Everyone's journey into whiskey and into the flavors of whiskey will be very different. The consumer of the different subcategories can be slightly different as well.
André De Almeida:Typically people that drink blended Scotch, for example, they tend to be a lot more brand loyal than a single malt. They tend to maybe drink that more regularly. Historically, if you look at people that drank Famous Grouse, for example, in The UK, they would have been probably on a much older age profile than your marketeer would like you to think in terms of their target market. They would drink it frequently and they knew what they liked. And we're seeing obviously a growth of single malt drinkers since the inception or the marketing, I guess, of single malts as a concept in the sixties and seventies.
André De Almeida:The single malt drinker tends to be much more exploratory. They are repertoire drinkers by their nature. They're looking, yes, they may have brands that they like, but they also like to explore different flavours. And I think that's quite exciting because it then allows you to really showcase the different flavour profiles that whisky can produce.
Chris Maffeo:I remember we were discussing this with Duncan McRae from from Woven, no? And we were talking about the renaissance of blended whiskey that has been put on a bit of a side because of, you know, how big companies have been treating blends, pushing it out from the distillery and focusing more on single malt. So so there is been this thing like, you know, people, especially people that are outside of the whiskey categories or whiskey they're not whiskey drinkers. I find that, you know, they look at blended like a like a bit of a down. They they look down on them, but like single malt, whatever that can be, it's higher.
Chris Maffeo:Although they may not actually even know what single malt means. You know, sometimes they confuse it with single cask. There's so much confusion. Even I've got friends that have got, you know, fifteen, twenty bottles of whiskey at home. And when I asked them what is a single malt, they didn't know.
Chris Maffeo:I mean or they thought they knew. Let's put it
André De Almeida:this way. Some people think it it just means it comes from a single distillery. But the
Chris Maffeo:And that's interesting because ultimately, everything is a blend, you know, in a way,
André De Almeida:you know, depending on exceptional of the single cask.
Chris Maffeo:Yeah. Exactly. Apart from single cask, but like even a single malt is technically a blend. Yeah. It's just like, you know, more looked after and then it's higher in selection.
Chris Maffeo:But if you select properly a blend, you may find quite nice surprises there.
André De Almeida:Yeah, but then it goes back to the how whisky is made and the maturation process when you're trying to create those flavors. And ultimately, most distilleries, what they're trying to create is as many flavors as possible, whether that's because they're trying to release a blended Scotch product or whether that's because they're looking to release a single malt. Effectively the whisky blender wants as many flavor profiles available as possible, which is also why in Scotland you see the common practice within the industry of swapping stocks, right? So you have this idea of swapping casks of liquid with other distilleries so that you can have at your disposal more flavor profiles in order to be able to create those blends. Because you may put the same new make in exactly the same type of wood, but it doesn't always necessarily mean that you're going to have the same output in terms of that liquid profile.
André De Almeida:Know, people are getting better at defining those flavors and what can be created, but still not an exact science. What I would say about blends is it's really great to see what people like Woven, people like Turntable Spirits is another one that's been released more recently where they are trying to bring that interest, that excitement, and potentially also share what's in that blend, is not something typically that everyone does, but obviously Compass Box did that when they first started. And that's great, we can't forget that the majority of the whiskey business around the world for Scotch at least is blend, it's a blended Scotch market. Single malt, as I said, started being marketed in the 60s and 70s, has done extremely well. It's obviously a more premium product, so it has driven value as well for category as a whole.
André De Almeida:And that's great for the industry, but we certainly can't forget about the blended scot side of the business.
Chris Maffeo:I like to think like I I think. You know? So I what was my journey into a category? So then I I try to recruit people. So for example, my wife is not a whiskey drinker, and I try to bring her in to the category, but she's still resisting.
Chris Maffeo:And for example, like, I'm I I mentioned in a previous episode, I was at the Whisky Fair here in in Prague, and then I was with a friend of mine who was a who was a rum drinker. He just drinks rum. And then I brought him in through a cask through a I think it was Glenfiddich 21 finished in rum casks. And, you know, what what's the role for you in in in bringing people from other categories through wood? What's the role of woods in in in that?
Chris Maffeo:Is is that a is that a major driver, like, to to recruit people?
André De Almeida:Yeah. No. Wood is, like I said, wood is extremely important. It plays a huge role in terms of the flavor it can help create. And what's interesting is sometimes where you see the association.
André De Almeida:So whether it's a specific type of wine or beer, for example, where the whisky producer will take a cask from them, finish their whisky to try to obviously have elements of those flavors to influence their whisky so that that consumer, you can help bridge the gap for that consumer to potentially try that whiskey and vice versa. So that whiskey producer then sharing the cask back with the wine producer or the beer maker or whoever so that they can produce something likewise. And I think those associations, those experimentations are really interesting to help bridge the gap as you put it. And back to what I say about how the product is consumed. For consumers that are already drinking something like a traditional rum, whether they're drinking in a cocktail or whether they're drinking in meat or on ice or whatever it may be, they're already used to drinking distillate and, you know, F40 percent or more potentially ABV.
André De Almeida:And therefore, it may be easier for them to to jump into trying another category. So I I always have seen that there are definitely opportunities for whiskey consumers to migrate between, obviously, whiskey categories, whether that's water whiskey, whether that's Irish, American, whatever it may be, but equally into rum, into other categories where you're drinking that that spirit neat or nice or even a simple mix, I guess. There are people that are obviously actively out there creating those bridges to help the consumer also migrate between categories.
Chris Maffeo:It makes me think a lot about, you know, how to recruit people because very often I would say that it is an ABV issue, you know, because, I mean, technically, all spirits are around that 40 threshold more or less. But the interesting thing is that probably there is an element of the the mixer because probably you drink more of a highball kind of experience, like a whiskey highball or a gin and tonic or a rum and coke or a whiskey and coke. And because it's so diluted with, you know, ice and the mixer, then that you don't think about it because, I mean, nobody drinks gin meat, you know, unless, I mean, they're like some hardcore people do, of course. Like, if I think back of, for example, my wife, you know, like, she's she's more of a, you know, drinks gin and tonic. So she doesn't think about the ABV in the same terms as if she was trying my drum of a single malt, because then all of a sudden it's just like, boom, you know, like she gets, she just gets the full ABV into into herself.
André De Almeida:Exactly. It's right? Yeah. As opp like you said, gin is the perfect perfect example because most people drink it as a gin and tonic or a gin and some other mixer. Therefore, are you more likely to move towards a highball, you know, whiskey with soda, or are you more likely to go for a whiskey neat or on the rocks or wherever it may be?
André De Almeida:Obviously the highball would be a better way to help that consumer come into the whiskey because it's more accessible from an experience perspective, from a flavor profile perspective for that specific consumer. But equally, you've got consumers that have gone all the way to the other side. So for example, you've got consumers that have really gone into the whiskey journey, got into single malts maybe, started exploring the flavors, and then maybe they also start getting into the single casks. When you talk about single casks, naturally they're going to be much higher ABV, right? If you then present to them a single malt at 40%, they are so used to drinking within that side that they may actually not appreciate it as much just because that's where they are at the moment, that's where they are in their whisky journey.
