099 | Luke Hemsley | Targeting Midweek Drinking Occasions With Wednesday's Domaine's Alcohol-Free Wine

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Hi Luke, welcome to the Mafia
Drinks podcast.

Hi, Chris.
Good afternoon.

Thank you very much for having
me.

It's an honour to have you.
I was just telling you that I

realized we've been in touch by
e-mail since three years, and

back then you were telling me
that you were starting or you

had just started, right?
Yeah, exactly.

And it's slightly terrifying to
think where three years has

gone.
But as I was saying to you,

that, you know, your podcast or
newsletter has been hugely

influential in in terms of how
we've gone about building

Wednesday to Main over the last
few years.

So it's a real honour to be here
as a guest.

That's great to hear and well
done.

I I see what you have achieved
in the last three years and what

you're working on and it's
fantastic to see the

development.
Thank you.

That's very kind of you to say.
So let's start.

I want to quote you on something
that I really like.

Going through your posts on
LinkedIn, you wrote.

Anyone who knows me or the
business knows that I'm obsessed

with these two notions,
awareness and appreciation.

A lack of awareness and a lack
of appreciation risk holding

back the alcohol free wine
category and it's our job to

help change that.
When I think about two things

that risk stopping a business
from ours growing, it is those

two things, awareness and
appreciation.

The awareness comes down to do
people have an understanding of

the broader category?
Does it already fit into their

lives?
When I talk about a lack of

awarenesses, alcohol free wine,
I didn't even realize a thing

that that's quite interesting
and appreciation tends to sound

like, isn't that just grape
juice or I had some of that a

while ago.
Isn't it all terrible?

So whatever we do at Wednesday's
domain is often viewed through

the lens of trying to combat or
tackle those two things.

How do we get more people
interested in and engaged with

the category of alcohol free
wine?

And then once we've done that
slightly lower down the funnel,

you might call it, how do we
challenge that idea that it's

all terrible?
How do we educate them around

the fact that things are
changing and there has been a

significant step change in
quality within the alcohol free

wine space.
So how do we develop that

appreciation of what businesses
like us at Wednesday's Domain

are now doing?
Last week I was telling that I

was about to have a discussion
with you on the podcast, and

some friends of mine were like,
what?

They were Italians, obviously.
So Alco free wine.

What are you talking about?
I was putting my hat on

defending alcohol free in
general, mentioning, you know,

both Evo and other players that
are in the space now.

Yeah.
And it's interesting because

this awareness as such, like
everybody that listen to the

podcast knows my hate for the
word awareness.

I like to call it demand.
But in this particular case it

is an awareness issue because
most people don't even know that

alcohol free wine actually is a
thing and exists now.

So they don't even consider it
into their repertoire of

occasions.
Exactly.

Awareness is much earlier than
demand.

People aren't at the point of
purchase.

They're not deciding whether
they have one lager or another

at a tap in a pub.
They need to know that these

products, the suite of products,
whether that's Wednesdays or

Domain or otherwise, even exist.
And so that is really important

to remember that as an alcohol
free wine round, we do exist in

a niche.
We're lucky that non alcoholic

beer and non alcoholic spirits
have gone before us.

And non alcoholic beer is
actually a much more relevant

example than non alcoholic
spirits.

The reason being there was a
time where non alcoholic beer

was a laughable concept.
You know, you mentioned speaking

to Italian friends and they
weren't sure about alcohol free

wine.
Conceptually, that was the same

with non alcoholic beer.
If you speak to people of a

certain age, they're nudging
each other or laugh, smile and

talk about caliber and everyone
will just say God, that was a

terrible product.
And if you look at alcohol free

beer now, you know it's gone
fully mainstream.

Awareness of it is super high.
You have brands like Perini

sponsoring Formula One, you have
Heineken sponsoring the

Champions League, you have
Guinness 00 sponsoring the

rugby.
Awareness is massive and

appreciation of it or acceptance
you might say is also really

high.
People now consume these

products, reggae, they fit into
their lives.

Not only are they they're having
them at home on their off

moments, but they're consuming
alcohol free beer when they're

out with their friends on a
Thursday night or Saturday

afternoon.
That's a story we can tell

people and I think the story is
really important because that's

how you get people to buy into
category.

One of the elements that is
really important in the alcohol

free wine story is acknowledging
that at one point it wasn't very

good.
Then you can speak to people

about why that was and how
that's changed now.

That's one of the key elements
when I was thinking of how to

ask you these questions, I was
mindful in a way because I was

like, I don't want to sound bad
to say quotes that I've heard.

You know, it's your baby, your
category.

As such, you are an ambassador
of the alcohol free category.

I heard these things.
I hate it and so on.

But I love to hear that you
acknowledge that you're not in

denial of these things.
Probably, I'm assuming part of

your selling story in kind of
like acknowledging that elements

of who's against the category in
order for you to make them

change their mind.
That's absolutely spot on.

And I think another thing to
acknowledge here, Chris, is the

fact that we don't demonize
alcohol.

We're not anti booze, We don't
criticize wine.

I myself drink alcohol.
I love wine, I drink beer, I

drink spirits.
Alcohol has as much of A role in

my life as non alcoholic or
alcohol free products.

And that's in our brand name as
Wendy's main.

We want to be the midweek wine
alternative for food and drink

lovers.
We're not empty any of these

things and acknowledging that
all of a sudden people are

aligned with your story.
And that sounds a bit cynical,

but in saying that, all of a
sudden people's heads start

nodding and they're like, Oh
yeah, that's true.

Actually, I didn't want to drink
wine every day.

I love wine, but I don't want to
drink it every day because I may

have work to do later.
I may have to be up early for

kids or I'm training for a
marathon or whatever it is.

Or it might just be as simple as
I didn't want to feel a bit

fuzzy the next morning.
I want to be able to jump out of

bed.
And so in saying that, all of a

sudden you can help people to
understand where these these

products fit into their lives.
And in fact, I wanted to get to

this, I wanted to get to the
occasion element.

Now the need state the occasion.
Yeah, I'm always talking about

this target occasion.
But you know, it's quite clear

that you can be flexible in the
occasion, but there are certain

occasions in which people don't
even realize that it would fit

perfectly for a non alcoholic
wine.

In this example, I remember you
riding on LinkedIn.

You said I firmly believe that
there are thousands of unwanted

glasses of warm Sauvignon Blanc
consume every night at events

around the country.
We drink them because we feel we

should, not because we want
them.

And I, I love that quote because
it's exactly spot on.

How many times have I done it or
gone home after an event saying

I've been drinking shit all
night just because that was the

thing available that night?
Can you articulate your thoughts

on that?
Yeah, and I think the first

thing to say, Chris, is as the
founder of a non alcoholic

drinks brand, I'm regularly
there myself.

I'll be meeting someone and I'll
be thinking I really don't want

to have a drink tonight, but
maybe I'll have to because I

don't want them to feel awkward.
And then I turn up and they're

like, by the way, I'm not
drinking tonight.

And I just feel this wave of
relief or there are other times

when I think I'm not going to be
drinking and I turn up and

someone's bought me a pint and
I'm like, that's great.

That's exactly what I wanted.
And I think it all comes down to

intentionality and being
conscious with our choices.

And I think that's what's really
exciting about the way the

drinks industry is evolving,
both with alcoholic and non

alcoholic options.
You can choose a liquid that

suits the mood, suits your
occasion, suits what you want

from that moment.
And, and I think that's what I'm

getting at with that point.
You know, the number of times

that we've turned up at events
and someone says, right, beer or

wine, It's not even type of beer
or type of wine.

It's just beer or wine.
And, and you're like, I don't

know, I'll take the wine.
And it's terrible quality.

You don't like it.
As you said, we've both been

there.
You drink it because you feel

you should.
Particularly as British people,

we're quite awkward.
We're quite standoffish and

we're not very good at
introducing ourselves to one

another.
So a glass of wine acts as a

crutch.
You know, the moment that if I

see a glass of wine in your
hand, well, I have one.

I know that we're on a certain
level, it's a signal which says

OK, in this moment we're both
relaxing.

And then there's a physiological
element of the alcohol does, but

you know, briefly relax you as
well.

And what's really interesting
about the non alcoholic space is

that in creating that signal,
you're relaxing.

Because we've all kind of
developed these these tics or

these habits where we associate
a glass of wine or beer with

relaxation even before we've
consumed it.

We've seen it, we've ordered it,
we've relaxed and creating those

cues.
You can do a lot of that work

without the alcohol to a point
of certain moments that are

perfect for it.
Midweek events, there's so much

to be said for going to these
events where often we're going

for a professional reason rather
than the personal reason.

So you don't want to be
thinking, God, I've had three

glasses, really didn't need
that.

There are so many other
occasions like that that alcohol

free products can fit into very
nicely.

And what's exciting about that
as a brand builder is that you

then have the opportunity to
play in less competitive spaces.

A lot of what you talk about is
in the on trade and how everyone

wants to be in the world's
coolest bars.

And the problem with that is
everyone wants to be in the

world's coolest bars.
Whereas if you're talking to a

law firm or an advertising
agency or a wedding planner or a

spa, there's a lot less people
competing for their attention

and for their dollars or pounds
they have to spend on drinks.

Big time.
I was just thinking like adults

standing at the kids party, like
dads and moms just waiting and

you don't want to drink, you
want to stay there.

For example.
That's a perfect occasion where

you could have a non alcoholic
wine and still socialize but

without having the feel for
booze and alcohol.

And what's exciting is that you
can have both.

Those two things can coexist.
You could have a beer or a glass

of wine and then say, look, I've
had a couple.

I'm actually going to move to
non alcoholic now.

I did that the other day and it
was so nice.

You have a couple of beers.
New to my colleagues.

Still have a lovely evening and
they're good to go the next day.

Absolutely.
When I'm working from home I do

the same with my coffee.
I've got mine espresso machine

stocked up with regular coffee
and decaf.

Sometimes I start with decaf
before lunch and then I go into

caffeine after lunch.
Or maybe I loaded myself already

have three in the morning and
then I drink another two decaf

coffee in the afternoon.
So whenever you are mindful

about this kind of free or non
free drinks, you can play around

it.
I was thinking of the element of

quality versus non quality as
well because we discussed the

kind of like the warm Sauvignon
blind example.

I remember at the time I
discovered Brooklyn special

effects, for example, on beer.
It until then alcohol free beer

for me was like a kind of like
very watery lager and then I got

this hoppy lager.
It felt like an IPA.

They didn't tell me.
I didn't even notice it was

alcohol free.
And I ended up drinking all the

Christmas party alcohol free
beer, you know, and people were

like, why you're not drinking?
I was like, I am drinking.

My brain wasn't into I'm
drinking, I'm not drinking.

I had a stout, then I had an
alcohol free beer.

Sometimes you can play based on
what you have available at that

time.
And there's something really

interesting there because if we
think about alcohol and why we

like it predominantly comes down
to a few things, taste and

impact, the fact that it makes
us feel a certain way, it

relaxes.
But she, what you've just

touched on there, Chris, is
there's also a satisfaction that

comes from being social, being
around other people and not

drinking and feeling like you
are.

And it's almost like you're in
on a secret because you're like,

everyone here is going to feel
terrible tomorrow.

So I'm going to feel great.
I'm going to have a great

night's sleep and I'm going to
wake up tomorrow morning.

Good to go.
As I touched upon earlier, there

are times where you're not
worried about that, and that's

fine.
But in that example, it's almost

as if you're part of a secret
club.

And that can be incredibly
satisfying and strangely

intoxicating.
You know, it's interesting to

use that word intoxicate.
It could be intoxicating to not

have had a drink in certain
maintenance.

Absolutely, Absolutely.
Now, many times I had business

meetings and then the morning
after I'm traveling and I go to

the gym at seven.
People are all wasted at

breakfast and I'm like, oh, I
went to the gym.

I was like, what did you do?
I went to the gym.

They look at me like I've got
superpowers now.

Yeah, you need to notice.
Yesterday I wasn't drinking.

I managed to play it smartly in
a way that you haven't even

noticed.
And I think so much of this

exists in our own minds and the
way that we've been conditioned

in terms of if I'm not drinking,
there will be a level of

judgment.
And actually you've got what

looks like a beer.
It's just now called free beer

in your hand.
So you're instantly blending in.

Just going back to your coffee
example that the caffeinated and

the decaf example.
There's also something there

again around ritual and the
power of ritual.

When you're stopping in your
work day to make a coffee,

you're saying, look, I'm going
to give myself this moment and I

enjoy the creating of a coffee.
Some of it just have to have

caffeine and some doesn't.
And it's the same with what we

do at Wednesday's Domain.
That's one of the reasons that I

was really keen when we produced
our that they had a cork,

because there's something
beautiful about opening a

cupboard, deciding which wine
you want, uncorking it, pouring

a glass, sensing the aromas,
having a taste.

That's all part of the ritual
that can exist whether there's

alcohol or not.
What have you noticed when you

are the only alternative, let's
say, or where you are together

with the alcohol version of
wine?

Have you noticed differences in
terms of our consumers perceive

it or how the consumption
happens?

I think it all speaks to the way
that it's presented, and

presentation can take many
forms.

That might be how it's laid out.
That might be how it's

introduced.
That might be how it sits on a

list.
And I think you know what you're

touching upon.
My Chris is an example that I

gave recently.
Rabbi, our wines were the only

drink option at an event.
When the organizers told me that

they were going to do that, I
was nervous.

I was thinking maybe you should
have some alcoholic wine and

people might kick off and be a
bit, bit funny about this.

And they were quite steadfast in
the fact that no, they want it

to be an alcohol free event and
Wednesday's name is good product

choice there.
And they, the feedback they got

was amazing.
It's really interesting because

in that moment you're removing
the element of choice and saying

to people, this is what we have
available.

We think it's a quality option.
There are two different, you

know, we had two of our six
wives there.

So there is choice.
All of those choices just happen

to be alcohol free.
It removes a lot of that dilemma

that we've spoken about, you
know, do I drink, don't I drink?

Why would I actually be
drinking?

Is it because I want to or it
because I feel I should?

And in doing that there are some
really positive outcomes.

I think that's slightly
different to if you take an on

trade example, when you're on a
list, it's about how do you

present what the product is?
And what I always say to people

is with something like
Wednesday's domain, ideally you

won't have it on by the glass
rather than just by the bottle.

And obviously there are concerns
there around wastage and

throughput, but that again is
engaging people with it.

But also you want to try and
give it equivalent to its

alcoholic counterpart.
So if you have a by the glass

list, have Wednesday's domain on
the by the glass list and just

add a prefix which says 00.
And so you're saying this is a

product of equivalent quality,
it just doesn't happen to have

alcohol in it?
When I launched the business 2-3

years ago, the conversation was
around, sorry, we don't stock

and on alcoholic wine we don't
have demand for it.

Whereas now the conversation is,
sorry, we already have a non

alcoholic wine, as I'll say to
people, but you only have one

and you've got 4 non alcoholic
beers.

So having one product on the
list is an afterthought or it's

a bit of an excuse.
Whereas having 2 is a selection.

So let's create a selection.
And because by the way, you've

got 50 alcoholic wines, 40 of
which you probably didn't sell

very much of.
So let's create these different

opportunities for customers to
engage with these products and

to create that incremental
revenue for you as a venue.

When I've got one particular
beer, like an alcohol free beer

for example, then I'm always
sceptical.

I was like, hey, that's
basically that House of beers

you have a contract with.
That's the version they are

pushing.
Like you have a contract with

Heineken or with whatever play.
That's what you get as an

alcohol free alternative because
portfolio wise they have decided

that's the one they're pushing
as an alcohol free.

It is changing now because all
the big players are having

basically like all sort of
alcohol free versions now.

What is very interesting is what
you were saying.

There is a cocktail bar here in
Prague that recently opened.

They created four blocks of
cocktail themes.

So imagine in each section there
is like 5 cocktails and then in

one of them the last one is
always alcohol free.

So rather than creating an
alcohol free section as such,

they've blended in the alcohol
free cocktails.

So of course we can discuss how
you can explain it or how can

you make sure that people catch
that is a non alcoholic drink

rather than getting like oh shit
I ordered this one because I

liked it and I didn't notice it
was alcohol free.

That's such an interesting
example, Chris, because there's

kind of two ways you could look
at that.

One is, which I think is what
you're suggesting, that really

elevates the non alcoholic
option, that thing we're a

cocktail bar.
We take cocktails very seriously

and we take on non alcoholic
cocktails as seriously as we

take our alcoholic cocktails.
The flip side of that is one of

the most hated terms in the
alcohol free space or drinks

industry generally is mocktails.
People despise that term, and

with good reason to a certain
degree.

The flip side of that is 90% of
consumers probably call them

mocktails.
Do you be stubborn about it and

say no, we are a serious
cocktail bar?

Or do you call them mocktails
because that's what most of your

visitors are looking for?
I think the answer is probably a

bit of boat.
Or you find a way to usher out

the mocktail phrase and and
signal to people what this is.

There's a real balance around
setting the tone and using

language that your consumers.
Use you spot on on the elevation

piece, because for me, when you
put them into a kind of like

relegation, then automatically
you squeeze it into this

territory, no man's land between
the carbonated soft drinks and

the cocktails or beers or
whatever.

Yeah.
So automatically my brain goes

into pricing elements.
A Coke is like €5 and then a cat

cocktail with no alcohol in it,
it's 15.

Yeah, you know, And then I would
default to the Coke while if I'm

in cocktail mode then everything
is €15.

I'm not paying for the alcohol,
I'm paying for the craft that

the bartenders have put into
creating that.

And by the way, there could be
more craft in actually creating

an alcohol free because they
didn't have alcohol to play

with.
And that's absolutely spot on.

Your reference points in a list
are exactly that.

As a consumer, where do you find
it, which is what we're talking

about, but also as an operator,
how do we?

Create the right margin
structure for our business and

placing it alongside those
products rather than the soft

drinks.
You're more likely to get people

who are willing to pay for the
quality in the craft that goes

into creating a delicious
alcohol free option that doesn't

have the punch of alcohol, so
you have to do something else to

create a delicious liquid.
And if we build on this one like

the on trade piece growing
through on trade want to ask

you, we were discussing earlier
about on versus off now.

How do you build on that
conversation that you were

saying initial now about not
having space for alcohol free

wine or being already taken,
like the fact that you are quite

outspoken out there and I see
you on LinkedIn, on Instagram

and so on.
So how do you balance that?

Yeah, it's a really interesting
1.

And I think ultimately it comes
down to where you place your

bets, where you focus your
energies.

And I think the first thing to
say is that as a brand, we have

focused more on the off trade
than the on trade.

And the reason for that is when
I started the business, I came

from outside of drinks.
You know, one of the things that

I was told by several people
with Gray hair in the drinks

industry is drinks brands are
built in the on trade.

That's how it's always worked.
That's how it will always work.

And the great example of that
that people always use is Fever

Tree.
They took a category which was

pretty dusty, didn't have a lot
of love.

They got stocked in some of the
world's best bars and all of a

sudden everyone wants to buy
Fever Tree to have at home

because it elevates their gin
and tonic.

And what I noticed very early on
when I had the backpack on going

around, a lot of them
fundamentally hated the concept

of alcohol free wine.
If you think back to your

conversations with friends, they
would just be like, Nah, not

interested, don't get it.
It's terrible.

That's that appreciation piece
we spoke about earlier.

They were aware of it because
they work in the industry, but

from an appreciation
perspective, just didn't get it.

The flip side of that is when
you do find people who do get it

or willing to give it a go,
that's where you really go all

in on that because they can
become your lighthouse accounts,

your beacon accounts, your
shining examples.

When you find those people who
are willing to speak to

customers about it, who are
willing to put it on list, who

are willing to advocate for you,
you've really got to make the

most of that.
And what that looks like is

checking in on them regularly,
providing regular training,

giving updates on the brand,
really engaging them as

extensions of your brand that
absolutely doesn't scale over

the short or medium term, but it
is well worth it.

And then I think the next thing
to say there is around this

intersection of on and off
trade.

And actually we spend more time
fixing on the off trade in the

early days of Weather Domain.
We're talking about bottle

shops, delis, farm shops.
The people who work in

restaurants on their days off go
to those bottle shops and they

will buy one and they will speak
to the people in there and

they'll say what's interesting.
And equally, the people who work

in the bus shops on their days
off will go into local

restaurants.
And if you can create the

secularity, you really start to
build awareness amongst a

certain demographic.
And actually they're all the

same people.
It's just the context in which

you fasting engage with them.
I love that.

And does geography also play a
role into that?

I'm a big fan of geography in
terms of, you know, being

relevant in a neighborhood.
So that in the same neighborhood

you've got your three
restaurants and two bars that

stock you and then those 5
bottle shops because people are

most likely to leave and work in
the vicinity.

And there is this kind of
contamination between what I

call the bottom up trade, the on
and off where you can have those

kind of conversation.
Yeah, it's exactly that.

And this is where I took a lot
of inspiration from, from your

writing, Chris, is, you know,
you want to be hyperlocal, you

want to show up consistently in
several places.

And actually as a small brand
with very few resources, one of

the best ways to do that is to
be very focused.

So early on, I would get
feedback from people saying, you

know, it seems like it's going
really well.

You're everywhere.
And I'm like, we're not

everywhere at all.
You just happen to live near

where we are, which in the early
days was a Packer or Hackney or

a Shortage or a Dulwich or that
is where we felt there were

pockets of relevant customers
that the the brand would really

resonate with.
When you said off trade, was it

kind of like independent off
trade or you also went into

retail?
No, no, no.

I clarified that in terms of
independent off trade.

So we're talking bottle shops,
delis, fast, really, really

focusing there to begin with.
No, that's great.

Because what I've noticed is
that it depends on the country.

You know, when you take Italy,
France, UK bottle shop play a

really big role in the
independence, like retail.

But for example, Prague where I
live, that's kind of like a

handful.
I mean, there's 510 of these

places.
So especially when it comes to

spirits, it's either on trade or
retail supermarkets.

So there is always this element
that you're jumping is like 01

thing while in markets like the
UK where you can play.

That's where that link creates
such a great situation because

you can have the alcohol free
wine in a restaurant and then

because you've tried it, you go
to the shop to actually get it.

And it can even be the other way
around.

It is and I respect anyone who
has the discipline to say no, we

are just on trade or we are just
off trade.

And I'm sure people who do that
have their reasons.

But you as a consumer or as a
customer show up in multiple

places in multiple contexts.
And actually in our example, it

goes the other way, which is
that people might be looking for

a non alcoholic wine for
whatever reason.

So they go to their local bottle
shop, they ask them about it,

and let's say they recommend a
bottle of rented domain that

will cost them 15 lbs.
The reality is that if you're

buying a glass of Wednesday's
domain in a restaurant, you are

going to be paying 7 or 8 lbs a
glass for the same price AS2

glasses.
You can have a whole bottle at

home and consume that over an
evening or two evenings or a

week.
Given that the category has a

bad legacy, you know, that
awareness and appreciation

piece, what we're doing by being
off trade focused and allowing

people to consume it at home is
we're de risking that choice for

them because going out is really
expensive.

You know, it's become ever more
expensive and the price of

everything is accelerating at a
terrifying rate.

If you're now, if you're going
out and having a meal here in

the UK, once it would cost £50 a
head, now it would cost 75 or

100 lbs a head.
The reality is that you're

probably not going to take a
risk on a glass of non alcoholic

wine you haven't heard of.
You're probably just going to

have a drink because you're
like, I'm out.

I don't go out as as I used to,
therefore I'm going to treat

myself to an alcoholic drink.
But if someone has had a nice

non alcoholic wine setting at
home or with friends then

they're more likely to choose
that when they're out.

So it's actually influencing the
other way, which I find really

interesting.
What you're saying brings me

back to what I was discussing
with David Luckman couple of

episodes ago on Bailey's.
We were talking about the bottom

up mentality of philosophy and
he said what Bailey's did was

kind of going against it because
it was built in off trade in

supermarkets.
It was raising the fact that

it's built on tastings and on a
price point is more affordable

than a whiskey obviously as a
Bailey's.

But what you are saying brings
me back to that because one of

the elements why the on trade is
so successful in building

brands, it's because it's the
other way around what you were

saying.
So is the DE risking element of

buying a bottle because you
don't want to buy 100 lbs bottle

or whiskey?
You're going to have a drum and

if you like it then you're going
to buy the bottle.

Because it's so much more
expensive to buy the bottle in

the bottle shop than to have a
drum recommended by a bartender.

While what you're saying is the
other way around because

technically they can buy a
bottle for the price of two or

three glasses.
It's very interesting, the

elements, the risk factor that
plays psychologically into

trying categories that you are
not used to, as it would be with

a whiskey or gin or regular
wine.

Yeah, exactly.
I think those 3 examples,

Wednesday's main, Bailey's, and
the W1 are so interesting

because they all have slight
differences and reasons behind

each for what we discuss.
Talking about retailers and and

off trade specifically, we
discussed the fact that where

you should place Wednesday
domain, if to place it in

alcohol free section or among
the regular wines and so on.

I remember you mentioned
something on LinkedIn about

there was some specific element
that she used to make it stand

out like with neck hangers or
something like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, spot on.

And that is a great example of
something you only learn when

you get out and about in the
trade.

So, so just to give a summary of
what what was happening, Chris.

So when we when we talk about
Wednesday's domain, one of the

things I've touched on today is
that we don't shout about the

fact that it's alcohol free.
It doesn't have a big zero on

the front.
We're not anti alcohol, we're

not demonizing beers, all of
that sort of stuff that that

I've already said.
And So what we want to do is

create a product that people
would be proud to carry into a

friend's house.
We wanted to create a product

that people were proud to have
sitting by their table in a

restaurant.
And we took a lot of cues from

their natural wine space, which
is really interesting because

when natural wine first became
big kind of 1015 years ago here

in the UK, they were doing
things in a very different way.

The bottles were very colorful.
There was a lot of illustration.

They were they didn't have, you
know, white labels with red

writing and picture chateaus.
And so we wanted to kind of take

from that, which is really
important.

So when we were then working
with the independent off trade

and we had our wine on shelf, it
was sitting next to all these

beautiful natural wine bottles
and regular wine bottles.

It very much felt at home, but
it was blending in.

So when we were going out and go
revisiting customers and saying

how's it going?
The same, You know, the people

who are looking for it love it,
but a lot of people miss it

because they assume that it's
just another wine.

They pick one that they maybe
know already or people are

picking it out, bringing it to
the counter and then not buying

it because they discovered that
it's alcohol free.

So what we did was say, right,
how can we attempt to solve this

in a relatively easy, cost
effective way that we can test

on a small scale?
We've got some neck tags made

which hungover at the top of the
bottle and they just said I'm

alcohol free friends with an
illustration of a wine glass on

the front.
In terms of rate of sale, you

saw an immediate uptick in rate
of sale because those bottles

were still blending in, but they
had something subtle which was

saying to people, OK, what's
this?

Most wine in shops doesn't have
neck tags.

So if you see one, you're
automatically drawn towards it.

People, we're really on board
with it because it helps them to

sell more products and then
create discussions with them as

the shopper and all the person
working in the shop on that

particular.
Day wow have you ever tried to

give it to someone like not
saying is alco free and then see

the reaction?
It's so funny you say this.

I actually sends a message to a
marketing agency that we work

with on doing this.
So yes, there would be moments

where people have tasted it and
then come up to me and said if I

didn't know that there was no
alcohol in this, I wouldn't have

thought otherwise.
We haven't done a kind of full

on Pepsi taste test in terms of,
you know, the historic thing

where Pepsi and Coke both tasted
products and it turns out most

people prefer Pepsi and that
example.

We haven't done anything like
that, albeit I am very keen to

do something like that.
I think we're at the point where

we could begin to try something
like that with the product.

It's a risk.
One of the reasons I think it's

a risk is not because I don't
have confidence in it as an

alcohol free wine is because,
you know, I do believe that

alcoholic and non alcoholic
products do have a taste

difference.
The key example you hear a lot

is Guinness 00 where people say
it's basically the same product.

I don't think it is in the same
way that I don't think a lucky

saying tastes exactly like an
alcoholic lager.

And that's completely OK because
they have their own flavor

profiles and they're enjoyable
in their own respects.

And I like them for different
reasons in different moments.

Our products as well as this
domain, you know, you know, we

think about them matching up to
wine in terms of sensory

characteristics.
They have an aroma, they have

flavor, they have weight, they
have length, they have texture.

And so in that respect they are
exactly like wine.

But in terms of the flavor
profile, there will always be a

slight difference because you're
missing 12 to 15% of ABV.

And and so that's a very long
winded way of saying no, we

haven't done any side by side
taste test, but we are

absolutely considering that
because it feeds back into this

idea of how do you develop
appreciation of the product.

Yeah, I love that because I
forgot to ask it to you earlier

when you were saying about that
event that wanted to have only

Wednesday domain.
I think that could be an an

opportunity where people are
also sort of distracted and not

that much into what they're
drinking.

They'll just go to the counter
and the the steward of the

Hostess will hand them over a
glass.

Then they'll start chatting and
sipping.

You could inform them by the
way, or maybe when they go into

the counter and say like, no,
actually I'm not drinking.

Do you have anything alcohol
free?

It would be more like a non
scientific study because some

people would know, some people
would not know.

But I think that could be very
interesting because surely you

would get so many insights out
of that.

You would.
And it touches upon something

really interesting, Chris, which
is that the moment you tell

someone something is non
alcoholic or alcohol free,

they're already looking for
folks.

They're assuming that it's a
less than product.

There's a great example on the
tube here in London at the

minute with Oaty the oat milk
saying they've got their taste

testers and they've got
blindfolds on.

They've got hats over their
heads, they've got ties tied

around their eyes, and they're
saying that these people love

Oaty when they don't know it's
oaty.

And and it speaks to that this
whole nation exactly, which is

that these liquids are different
from their counterpoints, which

in this case is milk and
alcoholic wine.

But they have their own unique
flavor profiles and rolls as a

place for both.
And I think that that only

example really sticks with me.
When I saw it, I was just like,

this is what I've spent my whole
time talking about and thinking

about it really resonated.
Yeah, I know that's true.

So let's talk about the
founder's journey.

Yes, I remember reading
something on your profile that

you said the founder of
simultaneously the most and the

least important person in
scaling.

I don't know if you said that,
but can you explain how do you

bring people we do on the
journey?

Paul, let's go from few spirits
was saying fire yourself from

being the founder and being the
most important person in the

business.
Yeah, interesting.

And I'm not sure if I had said
that or written that, but

there's definitely things around
that which are super

interesting.
Chris, my background is in tech

startups.
I understand and or have a sense

of the mechanics of building a
business and doing things step

by step but the drinks piece it
it it is new to me.

So the reason I share that
example is there are absolutely

times where you have to put your
founder hat on.

There are certain things that I
think you have to lean into, and

I think a lot of founders, for
whatever reason, will try and

outsource sales as quickly as
possible.

What people underestimate is
that you as the founder have a

certain level of passion and
certain level of knowledge that

can be hard to replicate.
You often end up doing more of

something than you might
otherwise have intended or

taking time away from other
parts of business to focus on

selling.
That's been a massive

realization for me because I've
basically spent my entire career

to date trying to avoid being in
sales and, and you know,

claiming I'm in commercial or
partnerships or whatever.

The reality is that you're
selling.

And actually, since I've
embraced that and since I've

begun selling something that I'm
really proud of and really

passionate about, the results
begin to come.

And actually there's a big
learning there, which is just

lean into what you're good at
and outsource or seek advice or

hire people better than you in
the elements that you're not.

And I think the final thing that
I'll say there is one of the

greatest joys I get from Nunning
Wednesday's domain is seeing

people who are very good at
things do their job.

When you have a brilliant
designer do something, you're

I'm just in awe of it because I
cannot do that in the same way

that I can't play a single
instrument.

So when I see someone strum a
guitar, play the drums, or play

a saxophone, it just blames my
mind because I cannot even begin

to understand how I reproduce
that sound.

And also this element of knowing
what you're good at, then firing

yourself at the right time, but
also not firing yourself too

early in the process, like going
to your sales example, because

that is a mistake that I see
more and more founders do into.

But I'm the creator.
I'm the founder, but I'm the

creator of this.
You should sell it.

Not me.
I just created it.

I'm the Baker.
I give it to you, but you are at

the counter and now you sell my
bread.

Yeah, exactly.
And also, I think what I've

learnt is that the traditional
definition of creative isn't as

relevant in in business or
growing a business because

actually, you know, you can find
creative solutions to commercial

problems.
And that in itself is flexing

some kind of creative muscle,
which can be really interesting,

rewarding and beneficial to the
business.

I think the other thing as well,
Chris, that you touched upon is

not firing yourself too soon.
One of the things that I've

learned is when I've outsourced
something that I can do, let's

say the commercial side of the
business, when I'm outsource

that someone else it, it, it
often doesn't work because that

personal, those people, that
understanding around your

particular element of the
business may not be as strong as

yours, or they may not have the
interest or the passion to keep

going because they're not
invested in it in the same way.

So actually being comfortable in
backing yourself and that's

really hard and that's a daily
struggle that most founders

experience.
But really pushing yourself to

constantly keep trying, keep
growing is definitely again, one

of the most rewarding elements
building Wednesdays to me.

And I want to keep doing that
for as long as possible.

I'm sure there will come a time
where someone taps me on the

shoulder and says like, it's
tough.

It's tough to, you know, you're
getting out of the back some.

But but until that happens, I'll
keep pushing, alarming,

developing and enjoying it along
the way.

Fantastic.
Luke, thanks a lot.

I'm aware of your time.
I want to wrap it up if you have

any final thoughts and then also
let us know how can people find

you and get in touch with you
and find Wednesday Domain.

Yeah, of course.
I think my final thought would

just need to say thank you so
much for having me on and giving

me the platform to to come and
have a conversation.

Chris, as I said, I have read
your newsletter, listen to your

podcast from the very foundation
of Wednesday's main.

Before the 1st bottle rolled off
the bottling line, I was reading

what you were writing.
So it really is such a pleasure

to be here.
In terms of finding our wines,

the best place is Wednesday's
domain.com.

You can either push them online
or you couldn't touch with us to

find out stockists that we have
around the country in a small

and green global footprint.
But Wednesday's domain.com com

is the best place to go.
And just a big thank you once

again, Chris.
Thank you so much, Luke, and

hopefully we'll get together
soon and share a glass of

Wednesday Domain.
Share a bottle at home in an off

trade environment.
Exactly.

Thanks a lot, Luke.
Thanks for listening to the

Mafare Drinks podcast.
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And remember that brands are

built bottom up.