110 | How Intimidating Menus Keep Cocktail Culture Niche (And Hunter Gregory's Approach to Breaking Through At Maybe Sammy)

This is MAFFEO DRINKS.
So at the beginning of the day

we always have had a happy hour
where we sell mini martinis.

And basically we wanted to sort
of showcase to the people of

Sydney that martinis aren't
scary, that martinis should be

enjoyed, and if they're enjoyed
in small amounts, they're always

cold, and if they're always
cold, they're always cool.

In this episode I welcome Hunter
Gregory, the bar manager of

Maybe Sammy in Sydney,
Australia.

We met with Hunter at the Mirror
Hospitality Expo in Bratislava

in May where he was hosting a
guest shift from from his bar,

Maybe Sammy.
As part of the The Three Days

Expo with Hunter, we talk about
the Sydney and Australian bar

scene.
We then talk about how to

connect and scale cocktail
culture to people that are not

usually acquainted to, to
drinking cocktails and spirits

in general.
And we talk about, you know, he

has great examples about, for
example, he talks about how they

managed to bring people on board
when they are visiting the bar

and they may not be keen to have
certain types of cocktails.

And how do you bring them on a
journey in order to, to do that.

We have an interesting
discussion about how to to bring

cocktail culture to a wider
audience for people that may not

be keen to to try and experiment
cocktails and they usually

default back to the regular beer
or spritz or gin and Sonic and

how to bring them on board.
I don't want to spoil more of

these episodes.
So this is the perfect episode

whether you are a bartender just
starting or a season bartender

or a brand manager that wants to
understand how to work with bars

and and how all together as an
industry, we can actually scale

cocktail culture and and and the
bar culture.

Let's dive in now.
Hi Hunter, welcome to the MAFFEO

DRINKS podcast.
Thank you.

Thanks for having me.
Thanks.

So let's let's start.
I mean, we met, we met at in

Bratislava, thanks to our
friends Stan and Peter at the

Mirror Hospitality Expo.
We started chatting there and,

and, you know, you were telling
me some stories.

I saw you in action.
I saw how you, you know,

brought, you know, energy to the
room.

It was like insane and I and I
thought, OK, like I must have

Hunter on the show and and we we
must, we must talk about all

things spirits and and cocktail
culture.

Let's do it.
Let's not waste a second and

thank you.
I don't know if I have much

energy.
I brought the energy was already

sort of in that route.
Everyone wanted to have some fun

that evening.
Fantastic.

So that tell, tell me.
I mean, I, I haven't had for a

quite a while, you know, people
from, from Australia.

So let's, let's talk a little
bit about the scene, you know,

in Sydney, Melbourne, how, how's
the, how's the cocktail scene

and how does it compare to other
cities in well, in Australia 1st

and then in the region and, and
and elsewhere?

Well, let's let's sort of start
with with Australia.

Australia's drinking culture, I
guess could say is say up and

down you've got sort of the two
extremes and nothing really in

the middle.
You've got amazing cocktail bars

doing great scenes and then
you've sort of just got like the

everyday pub and these sorts of
these sorts of style of venues

that people are enjoying their
time at, which is great.

In terms of cocktail scenes,
there's definitely some hotspots

in every city around Australia.
I was lucky enough to go to

Adelaide and Melbourne in the
last sort of six months or so.

And there's definitely some
amazing venues in both cities.

Sydney overall, you know, has
its good spots and its bad spots

just like every city.
But look, you know, honestly, I

think the amount of quality
spots in one city is, you know,

it's still lagging compared to
somewhere like London, somewhere

like potentially New York.
I've never been.

So anybody listening to this
wants to bring maybe Sandy to

New York, please bring me there.
But compared to these sorts of

cities, you know, these big
global cities, Australian

capital cities are a little bit
further behind.

And, and so how, how does it
work in, in terms of, let's say,

influence what I, I mean, coming
from my Italian background or

let's call it European
background, I always see

cocktail couch in cocktail
couch.

There's of course there's a big
play of the Italians obviously,

but but it's a very.
Just a little bit.

Just a little bit, but it's a
very Anglo-Saxon driven culture.

Now I see that the brands, you
know, the trends are usually

coming, you know, New York,
London, you know, Sydney as

well.
How does it play in kind of like

influencing each other?
And you know, what is what would

you say it's Australian native
in terms of trends and, and, and

what is actually brought in from
abroad from other other culture

working there?
OK.

Look, I think, I think from my
experience in the last eight

years, I've been in hospitality
for 8 1/2 almost nine years.

And for me, I saw like the big
trends, yeah, let's say coming

from London to New York that
sort of time period ago.

But in all honesty, I think that
at the moment of you see a lot

of Europeans in particular
moving to different parts of

Asia and taking, let's say that
that old school London, New York

approach and opening it sort of
in Asia.

We see, I think that there's a
bit of a stronger, let's say

technique driven style of
drinking in Asia, where more of

that more centrifuges, more,
more time spent creating drinks

behind the scenes that they're
now sort of combining those two

worlds together.
And a lot of the trends that

we're that I'm seeing, let's say
are coming from Asia.

But again, if you sort of trace
them back, you know, there's

definitely some pioneers at the
moment in in creating these

trends, but I don't think that
they're necessarily still in

London and New York, but maybe
originally they were there.

But you know, I think like even
like with Simone Caporale

starting from London and now in
and now in Barcelona, you know,

there's a really amazing scene
there.

But then if you think about
someone like Lorenzo and Tomodi

that started off in London as
well and then old now he's in

Hong Kong and he's been in Hong
Kong for a long time.

Do you sort of see that sort of
transition that I think those

those people are sort of coming
out of those big cities and

opening up new venues and
pushing the the boundaries and

creating these trends in
different parts of the world

now?
But I think for us in Australia,

we're seeing a lot of influence
from different parts of Asia,

which has been really cool.
But also our a lot of our

demographic, especially maybe
sadly is quite Asian focused.

We have a lot of guests,
especially from China.

And I don't know if it's
something that's attached to

this list or if it's something
that's attached to, you know,

just at the moment, like our
geography, you know, China's not

that far away.
And in all honesty, I've been to

China three times in the last 12
months or so.

And then they're pushing,
they're trying to push the

damages there as well.
So we're seeing a lot more

trends from Asia than the big
cities, but I think that those

trends coming from Asia, some of
them are definitely coming from

bartenders or bar owners that
are coming from Europe and the

states.
I'm living this way.

I like it.
And what, what, what I, what I

mean is in, in fact, that
there's always, you know, I'm

always talking about building
brands and, and there's always

this kind of like disconnect
that I see between the big multi

net, you know, the big
international cities or the big

international hubs like Sydney
would be, you know, London,

Paris, NY and so on, LA and then
you put Asia, you know,

Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing
and so on.

And the rest of the world, which
is kind of like, I don't want to

go the second tier.
But you know what I mean, in the

sense of internationality of
the, of the scene.

I mean, even even if I take
Prague as an example, it's a,

it's an international city, but
it's a, it's a very local kind

of scene.
You know, So very, very often I

see that for example, when I'm
working with big brands and they

talk about drink strategy and
you know, kind of like hot

cocktails, you know, like which
cocktails you know, we should

push and so on.
There is this kind of disconnect

that is a very kind of
London-based or New York based

headquarter that see things from
a totally different perspective

because they may have so many
bars in which those cocktails

are trending.
While if you take a normal

random city in, in a nor, I
mean, which is probably even

having like a million people in
it or, or, or just just less.

Yeah, you know, the, the, the
development of the cocktail

scene and the cocktail culture,
it's is not that well, it's not

that developed.
So we're good.

Sorry, the dog's barking and
people have this.

OK this.
Is the this is the this is the

beauty of this?
No.

So I was saying the, you know,
there is a kind of disconnect

between this top end bars and
top end cities.

I would call it you know, and
there is a bit of a scene there.

While when you take you mention
it in even in Sydney, you know,

like the the pub down the roads
and the, you know, the local

where people are going to go for
a beer.

You need to bring them in the
journey of drinking cocktails.

I think, I think, I think in
terms of Australia, Australia is

really good at having spots that
are keeping up with global

trends, but the demographic here
isn't ready for those trends to

sort of arrive.
I've always said that Sydney's

probably 10 years behind London.
There's spots that showcase the

best parts of London.
You know, I think like there,

there's some amazing bars in
Sydney per SE.

I think like Basumi, which is a
brand new opening in the last 12

months or so, is doing an
amazing job of bringing that

sort of like old school London,
New York, even Japan sort of

drinking style to the
demographic of Sydney.

But generally speaking, like if
we were to do, let's say in a

sense here, experience from
Zips, but at maybe Sammy or even

a an off brand of maybe Sammy,
people would be leaving the

experience being like, I'm not
drunk.

I don't know why I did this sort
of experience to go drinking and

I'm walking out as the
experience drunk.

It's sort of like when you eat
off the fine dining restaurant

and you eat McDonald's on the
way home, sort of like the same

sort of thing, you know, like I
feel like if you go to a sense

here and you're there for the
experience.

And like for, for myself, I was
lucky enough to do that sort of

experience.
And you know, we left that

experience.
And if we had just been at that

one experience, we probably
wouldn't have been drunk, but we

were, you know, we did 6
beforehand and then we just fuck

the laughter.
But that's a different story.

But if Australians, generally
speaking, went to do that

experience and that was their,
that was their experience.

Instead of doing, you know, a
pub crawl or a cocktail bar

crawl, they went to just go see
that part of the bar and they

had nine small tastings and they
left the experience.

Not drum.
The Australian demographic would

be like, I'm never going back
there.

I there's no reason for me to go
back there.

I paid all that money for all of
those cocktails and I'm really

like still sober.
So in these sorts of ways we

have places like, I don't want
to say us, but you know, we've

got caretakers cottage in in
Melbourne that's doing amazing

stuff.
There's some amazing, amazing

stuff going on in Melbourne.
Some sort of hotspots would be,

let's say like Gimlet as well.
There's a little hotspots, let's

say in Brisbane and there's
definitely some good ones that

I've been to in Adelaide of
recent that are sort of trying

to bring the new and current
sort of trends to those cities.

But I think even those cities
would be even, maybe not

Melbourne, but probably Adelaide
and Brisbane are probably even

further than 10 years behind.
And I always grew up in an area

that's about one hour South of
Sydney CBD.

And that area is like, let's say
another five or seven years

behind Sydney CBD.
Like if we were to go there,

it's just like passionfruit
Capri Oscars and and the worst

expression martinis of all time,
which is fine.

They're great drinks, but you
know, I feel like it's uphold a

little bit.
But this is, this is super

interesting because this is, you
know, what I'm, what I'm hearing

from you is the, is the fact
that actually, you know, in, in

the world is very much like
similar at the end of the day,

you know, like you always have
this kind of hubs in the city,

whatever city it is, you know,
no matter how forward thinking

and advance that city is in
terms of trends.

But then, you know, you probably
go around the block and you

know, and it's still kind of
like, you know, you, you go, you

go, you go with the.
Exactly the same as it was 20

years ago.
And.

Yeah.
No, look, I think, I think

Australia general speaking like
there's, there's hotspots that

are keeping up with the trends
and, you know, setting trends

and these sorts of things.
And those are evident because,

you know, maybe Sammy's been on
the the list for a couple of

years the, and then, you know,
Caretakers Cottage has just

beaten us for best part of the
region, which is amazing.

So there's obviously other
people that are pushing the

boundaries if measuring against
that list, let's say, especially

on the global scale.
But you know, outside of those

sort of hotspots, you know, I
think I could probably name

maybe 5 or 6 bars in Sydney that
aren't on that list, but should

be, you know, still pushing the
boundaries and still creating

trends.
But overall, we're all sort of

limited by the demographic here
being like, I'm not paying for

something that I didn't see the
value for and the value for us

creating an amazing experience,
but the consumer not getting

what they sort of want to
consume.

You know, it's we're a bit
limited there.

And what?
What do you think?

Because this is a very
interesting conversation.

The, what do you think is the
reason apart from what you said

about, you know, the, the, the
alcohol content and so on.

But is there also an issue with,
let's say, not speaking the same

language with these people?
You know, apart from the ABV

angle?
No, no, I got you.

I got you.
In terms of like, I think that

it just comes down to people
sort of set in their old ways.

You know, like for instance,
even a paint and sip class, you

know, right now has been quite a
trendy, let's say, date been

something that friends do
together and these sorts of

things.
And 10 years ago, if somebody

had told me, hey, we're going to
go to a paint and sip date, I

probably would have been like, I
don't really want to do that.

That doesn't seem like something
I would want to do.

So people sort of said in their
old ways and then eventually

they catch up.
But I think like the major sort

of hubs, you know, are sort of,
let's say Ground Zero for these

trends and then they sort of
filter down depending on the

city.
Like we say Sydney is like a

city similar to, you know, it's
a global city in terms of global

sort of things.
Let's say Sydney compared to

some other city that has a
larger conglomerate amount of

people, let's say that it's
very, very different.

Even though that we're on the
same level globally speaking.

We have an, we have a bit of a
lack of, let's say people that

come through.
And I think that that's the only

reason that separates the
biggest cities from us in terms

of Sydney because there's just
so much more foot traffic.

There's more people that come
through, more people that can go

to more bars.
And in turn, you can have more

bars with a premium sort of
offering because there's more

people to go to there.
But at the same time, the

demographic, if, if we had 10
million people here, I don't

know if the drinking culture
would change as fast as let's

say London or New York.
And there is there is that

element of footfall that is
probably right.

You know the, you know, when you
take a normal city in the

sometimes there isn't too much
offer for for the demand, you

know, of the city.
So ultimately, you know, to make

cocktail culture and you know,
brands grow, we need to kind of

enlarge that footfall.
You know, we we need to enlarge

that demand demand and that that
pond of people that are going to

willing to do that.
One of the things that I was

discussing with a with a with a
previous guest, Federico is

actually worked in in Australia
as well.

We were.
We were talking about now.

As every every Italian, every
Italian's went to Australia,

Romans did a working holiday be
easier than they go somewhere.

Else and, you know, we we were
discussing the I mean, he's

quite a lot older than you.
So he was talking about how he

was in the late, you know, the
late 90s in London, you know,

when the cocktail renaissance
was in, in full swing.

And he was mentioning something
about the, you know, the focus

on the customer experience and
the energy of the room and so on

together with, you know, pouring
drinks.

And then with the focus of today
that he's, he notices that there

is a lot of focus on techniques.
And, and what I was discussing

within was like, OK, sometime
when I go to bars to this top

end, top end bars, I, I feel
the, the atmosphere is a little

bit too austere for me now.
It's a little bit too serious.

And, you know, there's, there's
rules and there's, you know,

there's the, you know, I'm
handed the menu with the rules

of the bar and, you know, all
these kind of things.

And I'm, I understand what he
was saying, you know, And when

I, whenever I see, I mean, when
I've seen you in action, it was

a mini, maybe sad me, you know,
in Bratislava, when I, when I,

when I saw you there for, for a
couple of hours.

And when I see, you know, the,
the, the, the, the Instagram

videos and I see you in action,
like, you know, the vibes and

the energy I see.
I've never been to maybe Sammy,

but I can see what you know, it
transpires.

I'll I'll come.
When you invite me, I'll come.

One day, one day when I say when
I get the opportunity to invite

people.
You know what I mean?

Like the, you know how you know,
isn't that seriousness and that

kind of difficulty to comprehend
the bar, a serious bar

environment playing a role in
actually not having enough

people entering the scene and
entering the understanding of of

a new modern cocktail culture.
I think, look, in all honesty, I

think that Stefano and the boys
that opened Maybe Sammy did a

really amazing job of trying to
break that barrier down.

I'm very lucky to have gone to
many cocktail bars now around

the world and there are
definitely some and there's

definitely hotspots where it
feels a bit, let's say, stuffy.

You know, the whole idea of
maybe Sammy was sorted to create

a hotel bar in Sydney that was
rivaling the big hotel bars at

the time in London and New York.
The only difference was this,

Stefano didn't have the budget
to open a hotel.

He only had the budget to open a
cocktail bar.

So he decided to open a hotel
bar without a hotel.

So maybe Sammy was opened and
operated like for four or five,

maybe six weeks, like a five
star hotel cocktail bar, you

know, a bit stuffy, taking
everything very seriously and

these sorts of things.
And then Stefano decided he

said, fuck that.
I hate doing this.

This is this sucks.
I don't there.

There's no soul here.
There's no feeling like let's do

some fun shit, you know, let's
do it.

So then, you know, the next day
you went to Kmart and bought a

bubble gum And then, you know,
you had bartenders behind the

bar being amazing, the opening
team and maybe Sammy was let's

some would say an All Star cast,
especially in my opinion.

And then, you know, we have
three amazing bartenders behind

the bar, an amazing support team
behind bar backing, and then a

fantastically well respected
floor team.

And then Stefano at the door and
everyone, you know, making three

drinks, you know, making drinks
super beautifully.

And then Stefano sort of felt
there at the door, you know, a

bit bored.
She was like, fuck it, I'm going

to buy this bubble gum.
So he bought the bubble gum and

started running up and down the
bar blowing bubbles.

And then all of a sudden
everybody was like, well, this

place isn't as stuffy as I
thought, you know, so suck it,

let's have some fun.
And and, you know, so after 6

1/2 years of that idea sort of
evolving, we are where we are

now.
But the whole idea of it was to

sort of, you know, take
ourselves, take what we do

really seriously, you know, the
Amazon class, the preparation of

the drinks, everything up until
what we call Showtime, which is

the time we sort of open the
doors.

And once we open the doors, you
know, that's the point where we

take what we do very seriously.
But we don't take ourselves too

seriously at the same time, you
know, taking on that, that

concept of show business, you
know, being sort of a

combination of 2 words.
And you know, you come to a bar

for the business of making the
drinks and enjoying drinks.

But then as a, as an extra
element, maybe Sammy offers that

show.
You know, that's sort of the

energy that I guess you felt in
the room, maybe in Batislava in

terms of I'm making drinks, I'm
here to showcase to you our

drinks.
But I don't want you to only

focus on the drinks because the
drink is only part of the show.

You know that requires as the
business element, not the show

part, let's say.
And this is fantastic because

this is exactly what I I didn't
know the full story behind it.

You know, how it starts and how
how it's starting, how it's

going kind of thing.
But it's very it's very

interesting because I feel that
that is exactly what many bars

are missing at the moment.
You know, there is that element

of fantastic drinks from a
fantastic experience, but you

must have a kind of like a an
entry point for consumers and

maybe, you know, for for those
people, you know, for those

people that are not that much
into serious cocktails, so to

say you bring them in with the
action I think at some point.

I think, I think in addition to
that, like, in all honesty, like

I love cocktails and and I only
really drink cocktails at sort

of key spots in Sydney, but also
as a water conglomerate.

Generally when I'm on the road
travelling, I don't really drink

cocktails too often in Sydney
just because I'm always sort of

let down.
You know, you go to a local pub

and you know, all of your
friends around the table are

saying, let's have espresso
martinis on a Saturday

afternoon.
You're like, well, I don't

actually drink espresso martinis
on a Sunday afternoon.

I should say Sunday afternoon
and they go, let's say I'm

around with espresso martinis
and you're like, you know, I

actually don't want to have a
shit espresso martini and pay,

you know, 20 AUD for for a shit
espresso martini.

I prefer to just have a beer and
enjoy that sort of thing.

So I mean like the, the, I feel
like the thing that people are

going for more so now is
experiences.

I feel like everyone can sort
of, you know, make a great

drink.
I feel like everyone can sort of

create the right vibe.
But the difference is how you

make people feel, you know, So
in terms of if they walk away

from that experience feeling
like a little bit better about

themselves or a happiness in
some sort of way, that from us

is probably the most important
thing.

You know, somebody might come in
having the worst day possible,

but when they come to maybe
Sammy, they're going to leave in

a in a better state than when
they arrived.

Whether they're super happy or
not is up to them.

But we're going to try our
hardest to try and change their

day in whatever way we can to
achieve that goal, you know,

and.
This is this is also connected.

I mean, I'm, I'm pretty much
similar in that respect that for

example, even if I take food,
you know, I'm always arguing

with my wife that, you know,
when we go to, I don't know, I

say, I want to have a burger and
then she says, let's go to a

burger place because I know that
I'm going to get a good burger.

And then she goes like, no, I
don't feel like burger.

What doesn't?
I don't know what we're going to

have.
And then we just like, whatever,

choose another spot.
Then at some point she spots

the, the bloody burger on the
menu and she orders the burger

there now.
And then I, I went for, I don't

know, maybe we go for a pizzeria
that is happening to, to make

burgers.
And then, you know, because we

decided to have pizza and then
she pays out from the pizza and

I says I'll have a burger.
And I said, fuck, you know, like

why the fuck didn't we go?
Yo, you know, I wanted to go to

a burger place where we would
get a proper burger.

Now we went to a pizzeria, which
happens to make shit burgers,

but great pizzas just because
they want to enlarge their their

offer.
And and this is exactly, you

know, like how do you manage in,
you know, if you translate that

into cocktails, that's exactly
what the issue is.

Now that, you know, there are
there's too many, let's say pubs

that are doing kind of like very
basic, kind of want to call them

shitty cocktails.
As I'm not a bartender, I don't

want to pick up.
They're they're doing, they're

doing, they're doing the
classics.

They're doing the classics for
the for the majority of people.

I'm not.
I'm well enough that people

aren't asking to their money
back, but that's what.

They do, but the issue with that
is that how to bring and you

know, we're not going to save
the world to the the save of

cocktail culture today in the in
this episode, but.

We're going to save the world
with good cocktail.

But for sure, like if there is a
way to to scale that culture

because those people that you
that I mean, imagine you are a

professional bartender and you
have that take on a shitty

espresso martini that you would
get, you know, elsewhere.

So imagine the random ever Joe
that never goes for cocktails

that day that you managed to
kind of like kidnap him and

bring into a bar and make him
have a cocktail instead of a

beer.
Basically, that's the one once

in a lifetime chance to turn
that person into a potential

cocktail drinker.
I think like in terms of this,

it's definitely hard to sort of
earn trust, especially at the

beginning.
Like we have a, we're very

fortunate maybe Sammy, that we
have a lot of, let's say,

turnover guests and the turnover
guests that we have a generally

either tourists or people that
have come before and know what

to expect.
So we're sort of situated

between 3 hotels.
So those hotels are also, let's

say, some of the more everyday
premium sort of hotels.

So we get a lot of people that
are coming through Sydney to go

somewhere else or to enjoy
Sydney.

And we're basically the closest
bar to them.

And at the same time, if you
sort of Google cocktail bar

Sydney, maybe Sammy is generally
one of the first ones to sort of

pop up.
There's nice reviews and people,

people seem to like us, which is
great.

But you know, developing that
that trust and breaking that,

that distrust that they have
with every other bartender is a

little bit different.
It helps when you know, your

normal bartender that's making
an espresso martini at the pub

is wearing AT shirt and a green
apron.

And when you come to maybe
Xiaomi, I'm wearing a full suit

with a pink blazer.
Like there is a little bit of a

difference there.
People tend to trust people that

look reasonably, you know,
breaks down that barrier a

little bit easier.
But we definitely have people

that come in that are scared,
not not scared, but hesitant,

let's say, to try cocktails or
to try our cocktails.

And you know, even they order,
you know, a Margarita, a classic

Margarita or classic espresso
martini.

But you know, maybe Sammy, we
have the the philosophy of your

guests are not always right, but
they're always your guests.

So it doesn't matter if they
want a gin and tonic, they want

a gin and tonic.
So let's make the the best gin

and tonic we possibly can make
for them.

And the same thing happens for
our classics.

The same thing happens for our
cocktail program and even for

our food.
You know, people are trusting

their night with us.
So we need to be giving them the

best experience of whatever they
want.

If they want a Laci martini
with, with gin instead of vodka

and you know, they, they, they
want this, it's OK.

We're going to make the best
laci martini with a gin base.

So we possibly can just so they
order another one and we don't

have to close the doors
tomorrow.

But right, you know, apart from
that, you know, we're trying to

sort of make sure that everybody
is is happy and enjoying the

experience and maybe.
And this is, this is also part

of the conversation I'm always
having about the, the fact that

the majority of I wouldn't, I
wouldn't call it the majority,

but a big chunk of people
entering a bar, like, you know,

they're handed over a menu with
the cocktail program and they

don't even know that they can
order something else.

You know, So a lot of, a lot of
people that I see when I, when I

go, I mean, I was, I was that
guy, you know, a few years ago

and, and at some point, you
know, like it happens very often

to me that I go through the menu
and I said, shit, I, I have no

idea what to order.
You know, like I'm, I'm quite a

classic Negroni family type of,
you know, bitter flavors.

Shop Shop an Italian Alaskan
party.

Incredible.
And the, the issue for me is

very often that, you know, there
is AI noticed that there is a

kind of take on that menu, you
know, maybe there is a lot of

like citrusy elements or a
little bit like a, you know,

like or sours, you know, like I,
I had this kind of like help,

you know, pinpoints on the menu
that I read.

And it's like, no, no, no, you
know, and then often I don't

know, or I feel embarrassed in,
especially if I go to a cool

bar, you know, I feel
embarrassed to say, can actually

have an agroni, you know, I
guess I don't want to, I don't

know, lose my face or whatever
is like, oh fuck shit.

You know, I thought you were
like a connoisseur and now

you're going to go for a very
basic magroni kind of thing.

And, you know, it's, it's very,
you know, the, the recent

element in having, you know, or
managing to bring people on

board when sitting at the bar.
You know, like, how do you make

them feel comfortable?
I mean, you mentioned that, you

know, the, the fact that, you
know, there may not be always

right, but they are the ones who
are paying them there.

And they always say they want to
have that experience.

And then it's probably up to you
to understand, you know, did he

or she order a Gin and Sonic?
Because they got sort of lost in

the menu, and then they just
went for, oh, shit, yeah, Gin

and Sonic, you know, Or do they
actually want to have a gin and

tonic?
We, we're very lucky in terms of

maybe Sammy's a place where
we've had a lot of time to sort

of refine small details, let's
say, right.

So at the beginning of the day,
we always have had a happy hour

where we sell mini martinis.
And basically we wanted to sort

of showcase to the people of
Sydney that martinis aren't

scary, that martinis should be
enjoyed.

And if they're enjoyed in small
amounts, they're always cold.

And if they're always cold,
they're always cool.

Basically that was the whole
idea.

You know, I think Stefano sort
of maybe had seen these many

martinis in London on a trip
before maybe Sammy opened and

had maybe, let's say, borrowed
the concept.

But you know, this idea was for
it was for the people.

Then, you know, maybe somebody
launched and it was launched

straight into this sort of list,
and the demographics that

started to come were sort of
everyday people.

But these everyday people were
the kind of upper, I want to say

like not upper, upper class, but
let's say upper middle class.

So these people were the kind of
people that would go out two or

three or four nights a week
after work.

They'd all be working in the
CBD.

And, you know, these are the
kinds of people that would be

enjoying martinis on a regular
basis.

So these people were, you know,
trying the martini and then, you

know, somebody would say to
them, why don't you try the

martini twist on our menu?
And then all of a sudden, they

trust us because the martini
twist on our menu is actually

good.
So then from there, they trust

us a little bit more and they
say, why, like gins?

And then they try the gimlet
twist and they try maybe a

tequila gimlet.
They're like, wow, those are

really similar.
So let's try some other tequila

cocktails now.
And it goes like that all the

way through.
And we've had 6 1/2 years with

the same person, let's say to
all of a sudden they're drinking

milk wash Negroni Americano with
Vegemite and macadamia milk.

You know, that's the crazy thing
that we've gotten to where we

are now.
But we also will see a shift in

the kinds of drinks that people
will be enjoying over the course

of the evening.
So at the beginning we have the

mini hour, then we have the
cocktails and then from let's

say 10:00 till 12:30, especially
in my first two years at maybe

sadly that was vodka soda, gin
and tonic sort of hours, you

know, sort of like an Italian
restaurant after a parativa

finishes, everybody's just
drinking gin and tonics.

So that was sort of what we,
well, what they experienced

during that time frame.
And now we've sort of almost

finished that trend and it's
sort of being like, and now

we're serving our cocktails from
10:00 until we close.

So people haven't stopped
drinking our cocktails

throughout the night, which is
great to see, but it doesn't

really it, it didn't happen
overnight.

Let's say it was something, it
was trust that we earned.

You know, it's trusted trust
with the people around us.

And it's in all honesty, like
that sort of moment.

And when you walk into a bar and
you're trying an an experience

sort of cocktail and the first
experience isn't all that

gorgeous, sort of like, OK,
maybe I'll just have a classic.

I mean, I drink classic
cocktails around the world and

beers and these sorts of things.
I try and enjoy different bars

for the programs and some quote,
some people are doing some

really, really, really amazing
things around the globe, which

is great as I've seen.
But you know, sometimes you walk

into a walk into a Shanghai and
you've just gotten off the plane

and you're like, you know what I
would really love right now?

I just love a gin and tonic.
Like can I get a gin and tonic,

please?
You know, and that's, that's OK

as well.
And it's just, I, I mean, I, I

love to hear this because it's
it, I haven't really seen it

around in, in, in this kind of,
let's say, strategic approach

and all through the, through the
evening.

But I'm, I'm, I'm personally
very much, you know, I'm, I'm,

you know, if you listen to other
episodes, I'm always talking

about target occasions.
You know, I'm always talking

about what is actually the
occasion.

It's not about the demographic
much on who is drinking what.

It's more about the time of the
day, the occasion, the type of

situation where I mean, I always
bring the example, you know, if

my wife is having an upper
spritz, I may not go for a

Negroni.
I may go for an upper spritz

just because it's easy to say,
make it 2.

That's all for today.
Short analysis of this episode,

you can get more of it at
mafiadrinks.com.

But the first points that I want
to make here are you know, I

really enjoyed the chat with
with Hunter in a, you know, a

very young bartender that is
actually quite seasoned for for

his age.
You know how they are using for

example the mini martinis in the
happy hour to to bring people on

a journey to them enjoy more
complex kind of cocktails.

We talk about the scene and we
understand how not on not just

because Sydney is an
international city, we should

take for granted that people
have got a complex pallet.

You know, the majority of the
people would still be not yet

cocktail ready for the more
complex flavors, but there is a

plan and there is a journey to
bring them on board and widen

that that market.
If you want to have a more

thorough analysis, you can
subscribe at maffeodrinks.com

where you can get an A full
episode deep dive of this

episode as well as the previous
ones and the future ones where

we go in full analysis of what
was discussed and how you can

benefit whether you are a brand
owner, a brand manager, a

bartender, or anybody who's
interested into this beautiful

drinks ecosystem.
If you could think of a couple

of people that would benefit
from this episode, please share

it with them and remember that
brands are built bottom-up.