102 | The 3 Core Things and 1000 People: No Cookie-Cutter Formula For Building Non-Alc Spirits for Ben Branson | Seedlip, Seasn, Sylva Labs.

This is the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

It's not a cookie cutter kind of
approach.

One thing is really clear that
unites.

I guess everything that I do and
try and do is 3 things.

Ben Branson is the founder of
SIDLIP.

He's the guy who created the non
alcoholic spirits category as we

know it today, back in 2015.
Our conversation has not been

about secret formulas, silver
bullets, you know, not a big fan

of it.
He's been very clear on this.

He's been sharing his experience
on building a category from

nothing.
A lot of shoe leather to get

into the world's best bars and
restaurants.

We tend to see the success in
hindsight, but it takes a lot of

time and effort educating
somebody that is not familiar

with the category that is
actually brand new.

He's sharing the fact that he
has spent months in creating a

launch plan and he never looked
at it again.

We dive into this.
It's a very interesting bit of

the conversation.
He talks about the fact that we

don't want to focus on shortcuts
and and short term hype.

We want to build drinks brands
that are going to be here for a

long time, not a short time.
Doing it properly will always, I

think we'll always win in the
long run.

Ben is also sharing what he's
learned through Seedlip, his

current projects, Silva Labs and
season.

He talks about why securing the
first top accounts has really

helped him to, to build the
category, to build the brand.

He also shares very interesting
approach to the category to

competition on a world of non
alk that is totally different

today from what we used to see
in the early days of Seedlip.

So it's a very interesting
conversation and I I hope you

will enjoy it.
Let's dive in now.

Hi Ben, welcome to the My Fur
Drinks podcast.

Thanks, Chris.
Fantastic to have you finally.

I heard so many things about you
since my good old corporate

days.
When we were working with

alcohol free beer and there were
always seed lip bottles and

hanging around the office to
get.

Some.
Inspiration.

Fantastic.
Let's start.

It's a great honor to have you
and finally get to talk.

I listened to quite a few of
your podcast episodes and, and I

was fascinated.
So I'll I'll try not to ask the

same questions because I don't
want to fight with the

uncensored CMO.
It's an uphill battle to

challenge that because that's a
great inspiration with John.

Yeah, he was great.
Fantastic.

Let me quote you on some of the
things.

I'm a big fan of LinkedIn and
I'm always getting your post.

I like your openness in talking
about the industry and the

category.
One of the things that is

interesting for me is the fact
that when you launched Seedlib,

it was basically like a first
mover in the category.

You were building the category
before building the brand.

And this is one of the things
that I'm often discussing on

build a category, don't build
the brand.

Since those days, the non alk
and the low and no as hugely

developed and people see the
potential, but you still get

some challenges.
People are still challenging.

What's about non alk spirits?
Yeah, I think there's a couple

of bits of really important
context. 1 is it's no secret,

but I find it interesting that
non out beer, the first non out

beer was made over 100 years
ago, right.

Not like non out is not new in
that sense, but it took then to

the 70s and Beck's Blue
launching and people kind of

thinking didn't taste great,
right?

And and then you've got someone
like Athletic brewing coming in

20/16/2017.
And so you've got the kind of

incumbent Bex Blue and you've
got the insurgent of a new brand

like Athletic.
And I've done this piece of

work, Chris.
This exact same thing has

happened on vaping, on dairy
free milk, on alternative meats,

on alternative fuels.
Everything happened 100 years

ago.
Then it all went quiet.

Then a big dusty brand came in,
but was a bit rubbish.

And then somebody else came in
and actually catapulted the

category forward when it was
ready.

So that's probably the first
thing to say with non alkies.

Like it's not actually new.
I think when when Sealit

launched, you know, which was
2015, there weren't non out

cocktails in menus and there
weren't any other non out

products out there apart from
O'doul's beer in the US and Bex

Blue in the UK.
And so the conversation is far

more and was majority about the
need for choice like that simple

way before we got to talking
about distillation and non alk

spirits and C lip and what
cocktails you could make.

It was really focused on telling
some of the world's best

bartenders, chefs, beverage
managers, buyers, retailers that

there should be great choice
regardless of the alcohol

content.
That's what we spend most of our

time doing.
And so that conversation has

obviously changed and awareness
has grown and more people are

moderating and have changed the
way they drink.

And obviously there's now a $25
billion kind of non out category

and lots of growth and all very
exciting.

But I still see most brands in
the non out space not talking

about the category and not
developing the category and not

taking any, I guess sense of
ownership within the category

and their role within the
category.

And it's when you look at the
fact that there is limited space

on a back bar or in a fridge and
limited space on a shelf.

I think non alk is probably
guilty of anybody now can make a

product and sell it online.
People can put stuff onto Amazon

or they can have a website.
There's this idea or fantasy

that anybody can launch stuff,
which is amazing in one sense.

But when you apply that thinking
to the real world and to a bar

that has finite space and a
shelf in a shop that has finite

space, that's where the category
dynamics really come in.

And that's where the category
story really comes in.

Because you'll know you're
talking to people who you want

to sell a bottle to and it's got
to make sense for them and

there's got to be an
understanding of their offer,

their audience, their price
tiers, their etcetera.

And yeah, I think that comes as
quite a shock to people

launching drinks companies
who've done a great job online

and then Start learning how it
is in retail or in the on trade.

And this is like the old thing
about the drinks ecosystem that

I'm trying to talk about.
There's often too much focus on

the end consumer.
The drinks indices is considered

wrongly in my opinion, AB to C
industry while it is AB to B to

B to B to C industry.
Yeah, I, I like that and I like

that thinking and I agree with
it.

The probably all the marketing
books tell you about the

consumer, the consumer, the
consumer, everything's about

your consumer or they call it
the customer.

And that becomes confusing in
the drinks industry because who

actually is the customer and who
is the consumer?

And like, I always think about
kids food, baby food.

I've got three daughters.
I am the customer.

I am not the consumer, right?
Find gifts.

Of the shopper.
The shopper, there's another

one.
And yeah, knowing who the real

buyer is and who the real
decision maker is, when you've

got long value chain of
distributor, wholesaler, bar,

restaurant and then some kind of
consumer at the end of it, they

are not the priority like the
end consumer in launching

something in my experience.
And definitely what we're doing

with Silver and with season and
what we did with Seedlip was,

yeah, of course you've got to
understand there's a need for

your audience and who you're
targeting.

But actually so much of the
work, so much of the initial

work is not about the end
consumer.

Unless you're selling direct
online, you're not even selling

to the end consumer.
You're as far removed from them.

You've got to be able to sell to
your customer 1st and it's their

responsibility to sell to your
consumer.

Yeah, and this is interesting
because it's the allure of the

online, you know that OK, the
world is your oyster and you can

sell whatever you want and so
on.

But then you are, I'm always
talking about stepping out of

the meeting room or the
distillery or whatever you're

sitting and going to the trade
and this low entry barrier of

e-commerce or at least perceived
low entry barrier because in the

end there's quite a lot of
margins taken away anyway.

You think that it's going to be
easier because everybody can

have a website and it will
Shopify do something especially

in alcohol free where there's
less barriers than with alcohol.

But then you are basically
putting yourself even further

from the end consumer from the
occasion of why are people

buying that product and what is
the actual need for that product

now?
And what I liked about what, you

know, I'm quoting you or what
you were writing some time ago,

you said like seed lip is what
you drink when you're not

drinking, you know, and I love
that, you know, occasion or OK,

what demands pays or whatever.
But you know, if we go into

corporate jargon.
But I am fighting a bit of a

crusade against target consumer,
you know, as we were discussing,

because for me it's mainly about
the occasion.

So it can be you, me, my wife,
your wife, my uncle, whoever it

is trying to move away from the
demographics or genders and

people and age brackets.
But it's like, why are you doing

that?
And to your point, if you go to

a fine dining restaurant, if you
go to a nap scale restaurant, I

mean, I and I don't want to
drink for any reason.

It can be from my wife being
pregnant to whatever.

I don't feel like drinking
tomorrow.

I have a big meeting, whatever,
you know, I don't want to have a

tonic water or I don't want to
have a, you know, something that

doesn't really go with the food
or a soda, you know, and what's

the needs?
That's what I feel the space for

non alk or lo alk ultimately is
for you.

What has the occasion played as
a role in building seed, leap

and now Silva and season?
I guess my method on reflection,

and this is hindsight because I
don't have a process, right?

I don't have anything to sell of
like, hey, here's how you

develop new brands or here's how
you invent new drinks or here's

how you create new categories.
It's different every time and

it's not a cookie cutter kind of
approach.

One thing is really clear that
unites, I guess everything that

I do and try and do is 3 things.
One, there's a need, 2, there's

an occasion connected to that
need.

And three, there's a surf,
right?

It's really simple.
It's those, it's those three

things.
And for seed lip, we had the

need of what to drink when
you're not drinking.

And we had the occasion that was
in the on trade adult

socializing.
And then we had the surf, the

seed of pentonic.
And so that is literally as

simple as we made it.
And we've got those same 3

components for season, the
cocktail bitters and for silver,

the age non alcoholic spirit.
And that is a good formula that

I've been doing this ten years
or so.

Stand by those formulas.
But just to go back to your your

kind of comment on D to C Chris,
I so see it launched.

It did not launch online.
I hated D to C I didn't buy

anything online.
I didn't want to do it.

I did stupidly put my mobile
number on our website though,

which was a really silly idea.
I buy lots of things online

because I don't like leaving the
countryside and having to go

into a shop.
What I really hate is the idea

that somebody might have to go
to 100 individual websites to

buy 100 individual products.
As you said, there's low

barriers.
You can set up a website, it's

pretty, it's pretty cheap to do.
You know, you can kind of get a

Shopify account, you can plug it
all in.

You can, you can take orders,
right?

And I think obviously initially
if people haven't got a lot of

funding, there's no problem with
that.

The problem becomes when brands
start thinking unless they're a

subscription model that someone
wants to keep going back to

their individual website time
and time again.

I, I, it's we saw this with
Seedlip when we launched kind of

D to C and we were very on trade
focused and had a bit of retail.

I'm talking UK specifically
here, but it applies to the US

as well.
DTC was great, right, because we

didn't have lots of geographical
retail across the country.

People were hearing about it,
trying it in the on trade at an

event, their friend was telling
them about it, they could buy it

online, very frictionless, very
easy.

And then when we expanded our
retail distribution, DHC went

down and I was so happy about
that.

I was like, that is people going
to the supermarket to do their

weekly shop and being able to
get what they need.

They don't need to come back to
our individual website.

And whilst I don't care about
that end consumer all the time,

I do care about not thinking
that our brands are the centre

of the universe or that people
actually give a shit about our

brands.
People don't care as much as I

care about my brands, right?
Nowhere near.

And so, yeah, I think it is
about having that groundedness

or that respect to go, how can
we make this easy, Easy for US

distribution wise and easy for
the consumer.

If they love what we're doing
and want to keep buying it,

great.
Then I have to keep coming back

to our website to do that.
Silver's been interesting though

because silver is in all these
top Michelin star restaurants

and fancy places and it's in
Selfridges and those kind of

fancy retail places.
But we have AD to C piece there

because we have a limited
edition product.

And so because we're doing
limited releases and we only

sell direct and there's no
wholesaler and we are considered

by a lot of our own trade
accounts as a producer, not just

another product they buy in.
That is where I guess D to C for

US silver wise has actually
become really important.

This is a fantastic detail
because there is no size fits

all we were discussing earlier
and it depends on what your

brand stands for.
So what I'm hearing is that

because of your farming
background and family history,

you are probably perceived
almost as a farmer, as a

producer.
When the restaurant is buying

the vegetables, then they're
buying Silva because they would

buy from their own farmer that
they trust.

So they would buy Silva in the
same way because of the limited

releases because you ship
directly.

Exactly.
And we have to control the

allocations.
We're making a product from

scratch.
Before I come on this call with

you, we've been collecting
samples of horn beam and white

beam and some of the British
native trees to run some

experiments.
Because it's now summer.

We ran those experiments on the
trees in the winter, and we want

to see what the difference is
between wood in the summer and

wood in the winter.
Yeah, and that's very, that's

nearly the same as the smoked
salmon producer or the caviar,

the tomatoes, the fruits, the
vinaigrettes or whatever it is.

It's in that similar vein.
It's fantastic because there is

a lot of this kind of
blueprints.

You do it this way, but you are
confirming that you know,

there's no same way, you know,
like Sidley DTC from Silva.

DTC is a different beast now.
And also, I guess it's about

timings now because when the
wholesalers are not listening to

you and when you're launching a
new brand, you need to have a

place to start.
But it is very much noise for

the buyer because I have a bar,
I have a restaurant, and I want

to minimize the number of
invoices from.

Absolutely.
Sailors, producers.

So if it's super, super, super
special, then I'm willing to go

on that annoying bit of going to
website and ordering and have,

you know, like that small
invoice for it.

But then at some point down the
journey, now I'm not discussing

this for silver because it's for
immediate releases.

So that's a different story.
But on another product, you can

do that because at some point
the wholesaler will listen and

you will tell them, I've got 50
bars in restaurant repeatedly

buying my product.
Do you want to stock it so that

when they buy their whiskey and
gene, they're going to buy my

product as well?
You know, sometimes there's this

kind of like social media age
and this trying to be lazy and

find the shortcuts.
Then it's like, oh, Ben on the

My Fair drinks podcast said that
D2C is the way, so let's go.

Or he said it's not the way he
hates it, so let's cancel D2C.

You know, you know, people
always rush into, it's like,

analyze it, take it in and get
it to your brand and understand

why you're doing certain things
instead of just.

He said that, she said that.
Yeah.

And I think if you are clear on
your brand, your need, your

occasion, your serve, the
opportunity, the category

dynamics, the consumer
relevance, the wider cultural

aspect of what you're doing,
then the kind of strategy rights

itself because it's fit for, for
to kind of hit all of those key

parts.
And look, I there are

similarities about how I
launched seed lip and how I

launched silver and season.
There are common threads, of

course there are, but they are
different brands.

They are all non alk, but in
different categories within non

ALK they are there are different
serves, there are different

occasions and that means
different geographies and lots

of overlap at one of the world's
best restaurants has got seed

lip and season and silver and
that's amazing.

And that's a bonus.
I do think it's taking it all

with a pinch of salt and doing
what's right for your brand

rather than here's the quick
playbook and just follow this

sort of cookie cutter model.
I work with so many brands, you

know, beer and spirits and still
do.

And it's always like, yeah, but
you know what to do.

It's like, yeah, but I don't
know exactly what to do.

I know the path.
But that's why I love the name

drinks Ecosystem, because it is
an ecosystem.

There are bees and bears and
salmons and tigers and I don't

know if that day the tiger is
sleeping or got extinct unless I

go out there and analyze the
environment.

You need to get your boots on
and stick and be aware of wild

beasts.
You don't know which wild beast

is going to come out of the
Bush.

I think you can waste a lot of
time on theorizing, you know,

plans and decks and strategies
and demographics and profiles,

but it's not based on the real
world.

I think one thing I've done with
all my projects is I've had

enough of a theory.
When I think back to launching

seed lip, and if someone said
who's sort of seed lip for, I

would have told you it's for
people who like nature.

But what the fuck does that
mean?

You know what kind of nature and
what kind of people?

But the lens that gave me to
identify Seed Lip as being a

nature company that makes drinks
and that being our purpose,

rather than just making drinks a
way we could be part of wider

culture and what people really,
really do care about.

It also meant we could go and
design gardens at the world's

biggest and most well respected
Flower Show, or we could launch

Seed Lip in garden centres.
Like it gave us a brilliant,

beautiful filter.
You imagine it's a kind of

training session for a bar team
and they're arranging flowers or

they're making terrariums, or
there's a spoon carving workshop

or whatever it is.
It gave us such freedom to

connect with people on their
interest.

And it will.
And introduce a drink rather

than make it all about our drink
and tea lip and season.

The theory is we're targeting
foodies, right?

Foodies who like drinks,
seasons, an ingredient company,

not a cocktail bitter company.
It's an ingredients company.

And so that opens us up to a
whole different audience and

different opportunities that are
more, maybe more foodie kind of

focused rather than going, Oh my
God, we've just got to be in old

fashions and, and Sazeracs and
which, which cocktails need

cocktail bitters?
OK, that's what we've got to go

and be in.
And then silver, I mean, we're a

tree company, right?
So the trees, The Woodlands and

that whole world of culture.
And that means, like, we've had

woodworkers and furniture
designers come and visit the

distillery.
That means we're talking to all

kinds of events, like dinner in
the woods, feast and fire in the

forest.
And so, yeah, in a world where

no alks competitive and
saturated, alks competitive and

saturated, and there are low
barriers to entry, it has never

been more important to be
distinct and to.

It's not even about standing
out, but it is knowing your shit

and knowing what you've got and
making sure that has relevance

and meaning in other people's
lives and is a big enough idea

or occasion or cultural space or
interest.

The yeah, other people can can
get stuck into it. 1.6 billion

people on the planet rely on
trees for their livelihood. 20%

of the population.
We have a universal concept and

material Yeah every everybody
can draw a tree, right.

And everybody grew up with
around them in whatever shape or

form that psychologically we are
finding it becomes really

powerful when you are building a
brand or an idea, a world or a

community.
I think there's a lot to be said

for, and I love products, right?
That's what I like doing.

But I can't have great products
without them being well dressed.

They've got to be well dressed.
They can't just be great liquids

because if they're well dressed
they can have a place in the

world and connect to an
audience.

This is super fascinating for
me.

How do you avoid getting
sidetracked in that forgetting

about the trade where you get
into the garden centers or the

tree world and the wood world.
The reason why I'm asking this

question is there I see a many
founders and many brands go on

the shiny object, which is OK,
let's do marketing campaign,

let's do a rooftop party, let's
do a dinner in the woods.

Like to quote your example now
and then maybe your team gets

sidetracked and then all they do
is that one and they forget that

the actual value pool is
actually restaurants and bars

and all these other outlets.
I think it's both.

So I do think and I can only
talk for our experience Chris,

but trial is incredibly
important for us.

The on premise is all about
trial because it's all about

best first experience and that
with non alk is a very, very

important piece, right.
It might be the first time

someone has tried a non
alcoholic product in their life

and so that's quite
proportionately, that's a big

risk they're taking.
That's a change in behaviour

which is very painful for people
to do.

We only have, and I'm not sure
if this has been updated, but I

did some work with a coffee
company maybe 10 years ago

before Seedlip and they told me
that this was a global Dalek,

but it's global big, very big
coffee business.

And they told me that people
only have 7 drinks in their

repertoire, right?
Only seven kinds of drinks.

And you go water, tea, coffee,
that's three done.

So in order to get a new drink
into that seven, you're having

to replace something or be an
alternative to something, and

you're having to ask someone to
change your behaviour.

That is really, really hard.
From ordering what they usually

do to trying something
different.

When you're in a really nice
place, like a really nice

restaurant or a really nice bar,
there is implicit trust that you

are going to be given nice
things to eat and drink, right?

There's a willingness to be
amazed and be wowed and be

introduced to things that maybe
you've never tried before.

And so that primes a person to
be very open minded already I've

eaten reindeer brain and tongue
and all the rest of it.

So I know that feeling of being
really open minded of like I'm

here, you guys amaze me because
this is an experience.

So for non out, that's really
important.

And therefore we focused.
It wasn't all of our volume,

Seed Lip wise came through the
off trade, but what was really

important was everybody I've
ever spoken to who has ever

tried Seed Lip has first tried
it in a bar, a restaurant, a

hotel or an event.
Not I've never heard anyone say

to me.
Oh yeah, I saw it on a shelf in

the supermarket.
I bought a bottle and thought

I'd give it a go.
Never.

No way.
And so the on trade for non alk

provides this this volume there
now, right?

Silver does 6 bottles a week and
the Fat Duck, it's only got 14

covers.
That has changed.

But definitely in the early
days, Seedlip needed two things.

It needed to give people a
really great first experience

and it needed as much
credibility as it could fucking

get.
I never had to say Seedlip was

good.
I was very fortunate to go.

It's in these kinds of places
and they know what they're doing

and they know what things taste
like, so listen to them.

And that was a fantastic
shortcut to credibility.

It took a lot of shoe leather
and hard yards, but I think at

one point we're in 300 Michelin
star restaurants.

And so you tell someone that and
there's an implicit.

Oh, this must be good.
Yeah.

Then again, B to B before the
sea, yeah.

Yeah, you know, Heston
Blumenthal said some amazing

things about season and silver.
People listen to what he talks

about.
People listen to chefs.

There's no point in me telling
you it's good I made it.

So I'm not going to put anything
out there that I think is

rubbish.
Word of mouth amongst friends

and recommendations is really
important and powerful.

Being able to signpost, here's
the kind of company we keep.

If you are a premium product, I
think regardless of what

industry and what sector, yeah,
I I think having credibility

around you is very important.
Because building on what you're

saying now, there is a quote you
were talking about the 1000

people that mattered for the
brand.

You know, we started at the top,
which I usually call the bottom

because it's at the top in
quality.

But for me, it's at the bottom
because I like to see it, the

reverse pyramids, the most
influential customers and

people, bartenders, chef buyers.
What is interesting for me and I

think is often misunderstood and
I'd like to hear your view on is

that this 1000 people, they keep
moving and changing.

I may have been one 10 years ago
because I used to go out much

more than now and now I'm fading
away.

So I am, you know, a second tier
kind of thing.

But then there's a new 25 year
old me coming into the trade and

maybe being a bartender.
And so how how important is to

to keep the relevance of these
1000 people as the brand moves

and grows?
So I think there's two aspects

to it.
One, people know this approach,

right, of kind of go and get the
best accounts and start small

and then go and be in the
supermarkets.

The supermarkets look to the top
retailers and what's going on in

the trends and be going do that.
We defined it as being Halo

versus habits.
And so the Halo was the place

you'd go once a year, and the
habit is the kind of place you

might go once a week or once a
month, right?

It's more of a habit, whereas
you might only go to the Fat

Duck once in a lifetime, right?
You see this with bars, looking

to the top, cocktail bars,
restaurants inspired by the top

restaurants, musicians, this
influence model kind of happens

and works.
We were really clear that we

wanted to keep hold of the
relationships that we built.

That was very important to us,
is very important now because

I'm talking to a lot of the
people that I talked to 10 years

ago.
I'm back talking to the guys at

the Fat Duck or the guys at
Selfridges or Geordie Berry

Brothers or the team at Blue
Hill.

Like I'm going round again.
So I've wanted to maintain that

kind of reputation and those
relationships.

Even though Seedlit was then in
Tesco's and Sainsbury's and

Waitrose and lots of supermarket
distribution, I do think the two

can coexist.
It's not a race to the bottom.

I've seen brands get this wrong
where they forget about the

independence, they forget about
the importance of the top of the

trade.
It becomes this race to having

five relationships of five
buyers for five supermarkets.

That's 5000 distribution points
and you are at the mercy of

that.
And then you have nowhere else

to go.
And when you want to go, do you

know what?
We've got this really amazing

new product that we want to
launch or we need to.

The average price of our
category is decreasing and so we

need to up the value and
premiumize the brand.

Well, one way to do that is to
go back to the independence and

go back to the top of the trade.
But if you've kind of stuck 2

fingers up and gone, forget
about it, we don't need you.

Now it's going to be very
difficult to go back in there

and look buyers and bartenders
and top chefs, like everybody

shops in some sort of
supermarket.

You know, everyone kind of goes
to all kinds of pubs and venues.

I think people get a bit, and I
felt this before, but what are

they going to think when we go
into a supermarket, You know,

are they going to hate that?
You know, Seasons in the Fat

Duck, it's on Amazon, It's OK.
It's not in the crappy pub next

door to the Michelin star
restaurant.

But in order to build a business
depends what kind of size

business you want.
But yeah, you can, you've got to

you've got to be able to flex
the distribution strategy and

have those levels of scale
required to build bigger

businesses.
But I do think you can do that

without losing what makes
brands, which is that beginning

bit and that Halo and those
great independence and those

people that own their own
businesses or own their own

restaurant and talk founder to
founder.

And that is so important to me.
And I get on with those people.

I like speaking to buyers, but I
get on with people who have

their own business a lot better.
For me, whether you were talking

about relationships or being in
top Michelin star restaurants

and supermarkets, it's about not
alienating, you know, one of the

groups, you know, because the
moment you're just like, I don't

care anymore about independent
restaurants or hiding wine shops

because the money is with the
big 5 retailers, you know,

that's the moment where you're
alienating and you're doing

stupid things.
Yeah, it's super fascinating

because you mentioned it before,
the fact that people tend to

forget.
You call it the top, I call it

the bottom, but we're talking
about the same thing.

I like to go to the bottom
because of the foundation of a

brand for me and distribution.
The moment you forget about

those people, that's where
brands collapse and work with

brands trying to go for
rejuvenation, restart, rebrand

and premiumization.
I'm always telling them this is

like, it's exactly the same
thing as when you're launching a

brand that you forgot about them
for 10 years and now you're

trying to go back to them.
Let me go back to one point.

You mentioned earlier the
planning bits.

I remember an old post of yours
talking about the fact that you

had.
I'm reading it now because it

was great.
This was my launch plan for CB

back in 2013.
Through minutiae of every single

action required for 10 months,
color-coded, agonized over it

became a project in itself.
I finished it, printed it, then

never looked at it.
This is so clear and I've done

it so many times, you know, and
I've stopped.

I've decided to stop doing
project, you know, whoever asked

me for a gun chart, I tell them,
you know, forget about it, I'm

never going to do it.
But we didn't that action.

What's your learning in moving
and preparing for it, then not

necessarily following it, but
probably having it in the back

of your mind.
What's the learning for that?

I think the real thing that did
was gave me an opportunity to to

learn about the drinks industry
and learn about what was

required and maybe try and avoid
mistakes or surprises.

And I think it was a little bit
like giving myself some

homework.
You know, it's like a project of

like, here you go, here's your
brief.

Launch a new non alcoholic
drinks brand.

Go and plan it out.
What do you need to do?

I haven't done that.
Claire and I didn't do that when

we launched Acorn.
I didn't do that with Season,

but I've been working on Season
since 2017.

My process is things take me a
long time.

I did my first project on a
rapid maturation bourbon

distillery in the US 13 years
ago.

I bought a jewelry cleaner.
Not long after Sea Lip launched

and I started mucking around
with wood chips and ultrasound,

and only in 2024 summer do I
actually get to open a

distillery.
So these things, you know,

season 6 years before it
launched, like these things take

a long time in my head anyway.
And that's not because I am

deliberately waiting for the
right time to launch them.

That is just how long they are
taking.

Like that's just, that is just
how long it takes when I feel

like it's, I'm not going to let
it down.

That's all I want to do.
I'm not interested in selling

bottles.
I'm not interested in building

big businesses.
I'm interested in making things

that I'm proud of, of high
quality, that meet a need in

people's lives and that they
enjoy.

So when it's ready, that's when
they're going to launch, when

it's ready.
And, and this time, you know,

the last few times I've not had
to do that Gantt chart, I've not

had to do all of that.
First time learning about the

drinks industry.
You've been in the drinks

industry a long time, Chris.
Everything in the drinks

industry for you is known,
right?

It's second nature.
You know the jargon, you know

the companies, you know how
value chain works, you know who

the distributors are, you know
who the bar shows are.

You know it's bottles, you, you
know, pricing, you know all of

that.
And you don't even have to use

any energy on that when you're
doing something for the first

time, as everyone will know, in
any kind of area of your life,

use a lot of energy.
And it's really annoying and

it's scary and it's frustrating
and you can't figure it out and

you don't just know it.
That was part of that process

with Seedlib.
That was part of that two year

piece of learning the drinks
industry.

How does it work?
Like how do these bottles get on

back bars, you know, and how
much do they cost?

The bar wants to make 8090%
margin.

It was constant revealing and I
haven't had to learn all that

for the first time, this time
with silver in season.

But what I am having to learn is
I've got a distillery.

How does that work?
How do I do that?

How do I even set that up?
Like what accreditation do I

need?
I need blue plasters, not the

skin coloured plasters and I
need hand gel and hairnets

etcetera, etcetera.
And then throw in the fact that

I'm working with this material,
wood and trees to make liquids

that beyond really American oak
and barrels, we've got no idea

about from a taste perspective.
And so I couldn't do that.

I couldn't do silver as my first
business.

No way.
It would have been too much.

I could kind of get around on
botanicals and distillation and

Conor see the pentonic and you
know, I could manage that.

But yeah, silver is Silver's a
whole nother level.

This is so fascinating for me to
hear because I remember

listening to one of your other
episodes and you were mentioning

something, if I remember
correctly, correct me if I'm

wrong, but it was something
about, you know, you didn't have

this kind of light bulb moment
Now, like it, it kind of like

develop what you are, what
you're talking about now.

And listening to you feels like
someone who's super curious

about the world and about life
and you have all these little

ideas and stuff.
And then it they might shore

into your heads and, and when
they are blooming, then that's

the moment where you take them
to the world.

Yeah.
And I spend a lot longer

thinking and reading and looking
and yeah, kind of processing

than I do making.
I am not an example and I'm not

saying this is because I'm
really good, but I have never

done 200 iterations of something
or 50 iterations of something.

I've never done that I'm into.
Do all of the thinking and the

clarity and the research,
understanding and testing and

then you only need two or three
time iterations of product

development.
It's not my experience when I

read companies saying they've
done 400 iterations or it's

taken 400 attempts.
That's not my process anyway.

That's not my.
I can relate to you.

On measure twice, cut once like
that.

Kind of.
That's my theory.

But but again, it's about, and
I'm mentioning this because for

the founders listening to this
episode, the fact that there is

no blueprint for the right
thing.

I I talk about myself now for
the podcast, for what I'm doing.

I also sometimes feel like,
fuck, I came up with this.

I find an old note to myself in
an old notebook, which is

exactly the same quote that I
come up with, you know, a week

ago.
And I'm like, what the fuck?

What have I been doing for five
years?

You know, like I knew this whole
five years ago what you know?

But now it, it is different
because now it's the results of

other learnings, other books
I've read, other people I spoke

to, and now I feel 100% safe.
While before it was more like a

theory, yes, and now I know, I
know it works this way.

The interesting thing I find,
Chris, is that, you know, 10

years ago or so, there weren't
podcasts like this, right?

There wasn't as much access to
information.

I remember buying book called
Business for Dummies, right?

I bought that physical book.
I remember and looking into the

British Library was a source of
information for entrepreneurs

who are starting businesses.
The British fucking library,

right?
Go to the library and sit down

and pull papers and look at
stuff.

I had to go and have, you know,
it was coffees.

Can I take you for a coffee?
It was talking to people I

didn't have as any, no one did,
didn't have all of this

information kind of so readily
available at our fingertips.

If people are listening and
thinking, starting a business,

it's amazing to have this access
to hearing other people's

stories and other people's
approaches.

But don't.
Yeah, you follow someone else's

approach is a bad idea.
I think it's a cherry pick.

Take the best bits and make sure
you work out what's right for

your business and your brand and
the opportunity that you're

going after.
Because it, yeah, it's got to be

individual.
And this is a great learning.

And, you know, we tend to forget
that.

I think it's human nature that
we tend to look for the silver

bullets.
Like tell me what I need to do

with some people call me now. 10
tells us there is a silver

bullet.
I'm not a magician, you know, I

don't have a crystal ball.
I can tell you the steps and

what you should look at and
analyze, and we can do it

together.
But I cannot tell you the

future, how it's going to look
like, you know, because you want

to sell millions of cases,
because it depends on the

budget, it depends on your
competitors.

It depends on so many, like a
myriad of things.

At the same time, it's also
about genuine curiosity and

learning.
I used to hate reading.

I come from a family.
My mom was a Latin teacher.

I grew up with books.
I had the rejection for books

because they were sending her
free books.

You know, we were drowning in
books from publishers just

sending her books.
And I hated reading.

Then I started reading probably
25 or 20 years ago.

Now, if you look at my bedside
table, I'm reading 10 books at

the same time.
My wife is just thinking, are

you crazy?
How did you manage to do that?

It's a history book, a business
book and a cocktail recipes.

But if you lack that drive for
genuine learning, I think it's a

challenge to do any business, in
my opinion.

You know what you were saying
about learning and then not

having to do that many
experiments because in your

brain you have already done a
lot of experiments because you

are getting the distilled
version of that knowledge.

But for the people listening, be
curious and be asking questions

and challenge yourself a
challenge of thinking, not fall

into the trap that I know it
all.

I honestly, I challenge myself.
I've been in the drinks in this

for a long time, but I started
in agencies.

Then I went into beer five years
ago.

I had no idea what a nine liter
case was and then I did the

WSCTI challenged myself.
Probably listening to what you

are saying, also coming from
outside the industry is this

challenger mindset that puts a
chip on the shoulder.

You have to prove yourself.
You know when you enter and then

you are challenging things that
maybe other people take for

granted.
Sure.

Yeah, I think the reality is
that if you're starting a food

and drink business, it's very
likely you're going to fail. 9

in 10 food and drink businesses
don't make it past the first

year, right?
So that's a 90% chance you are

going to fail.
Rationally speaking, why would

anyone do that?
There has to be another reason.

There has to be something more.
And that could because it's

really personal to you that be
could be because you want to try

what it's like to set up a
business or set up a brand.

But yeah, there's no shortcuts.
And don't read LinkedIn too much

because you will, as I do, read
it and think, fucking hell, I'm

not growing fast enough.
This is everyone else is finding

this easy.
We want to build drinks brands

that are going to be here for a
long time, not a short time.

Doing it properly will always, I
think we'll always win in the

long run.
I agree.

I'm in my little world trying to
really repeat it over and over

again.
It takes a lot of effort and you

don't know what has been going
on in their heads, in their

life, in their business because
you only see it when the brand

is relevant and famous.
It always, it takes 20 years to

make an overnight success and
that's it.

You know, that's how it is.
I do this mistake myself

sometimes, you know, like I look
at my podcast and then I look at

other fantastic podcasts and I
see like, how the hell do they

have like thousands of reviews?
And then I look at them as like

a first of all, they are like 5
years older than me, 10 years

older than me.
Maybe some of them are one year

younger than me, but I don't
know.

What's the team like?
I'm self produced.

I'm by myself, sure.
Editing my own episodes.

It actually doesn't matter.
That's the other thing.

Seedlit was obviously 1st and
then lots of other products came

in and but we were really clear
on our response to competitors

coming in.
And the only analogy I could

give and we we had as a team was
we were not going to ignore it.

This wasn't about being blind to
it.

We had a Slack channel.
Every single product that

launched it was posted on that
Channel.

It was important that everybody
was aware of what was going on

#2 if there was anybody that was
infringing our trademark, we

were going to take legal action.
And that was really important

because there were brands who
were coming out trying to

directly copy our name or the
logo.

And that's really important
because the only thing that

anyone is ever going to pay for
if you ever want to sell your

business is your trademark.
And that's a piece of paper that

says your brand.
Because people can copy liquids,

There's a lot of clever people.
You're not doing anything that

is unique, actually.
So the only thing that has value

is your brand #3 we were never
going to make any decisions

solely because of a competitor.
So it's literally like we're in

the driving seat and we've got
our wing mirrors either side and

we're aware of what's going on,
but we're not changing lanes,

we're not kind of stopping,
we're not going faster, we're

not doing anything just because
of what's going on with the

competition.
And I think that's especially

for new categories, when they
get all exciting and lots of

people pile in, I think that it
can be really easy to be

constantly spending your time
thinking about what's the

competition doing.
Oh my God, they're coming for

us.
Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God.

And it becomes a real
distraction.

Super, super valuable, Super
valuable.

So Ben, I'm aware of your time.
Let's wrap this up.

Tell us, how can people find you
and get in touch with you and

find your fantastic products?
Sure.

I'm not going to give you my
mobile number and put that on

the website like I didn't see
it.

It's on the website anyway.
It's not so best way.

I'm Celip under score Ben on
Instagram.

I'm Ben Branson on LinkedIn and
I really do try and respond to

DMS on there.
So please reach out and say

hello.
It's see lipdrinks.com,

seasonyourdrinks.com and it's
silver la-bs.com.

They're all on Instagram, TikTok
and LinkedIn.

My podcast is called The Hidden
20%.

That's my charity where I get to
sit down with people and talk

about their brains.
Fantastic.

Thanks a lot, Ben.
Thanks Chris at.

It feels like a snapshot on,
feels like we didn't cover a

lot, but I know the time goes,
doesn't it?

Yeah, it does.
And I mean, I'll probably have

you on again and hopefully I
will come and see you at the

farm I've got.
Come and have a walk in the

woods and taste, taste some
trees.

I love that.
Fantastic.

Thanks a lot, Ben.
Again, thanks.

I would like to reflect on what
are the key learnings from this

episode.
The first one is the category

before brand.
We share this philosophy with

Ben.
It's about building the the

category before building the
brand.

Then the three essential
elements, the fact that you need

to have a clear need, a clear
drinking occasion and a clear

serve.
That's a fantastic approach.

Although this is a bit of a
minimum common denominator is

not a magic formula.
Explicitly said the other thing

that it's something he said, but
something that I, I wrote to you

a few articles about and I'm
sharing it during my master

classes all around the world, is
the fact that the industry is AB

to B to C industry.
It's not AB to C We tend to

think always about being
consumer centric, but it's about

focusing first on the customer.
So the retailer, the bar owner,

the bartender, the restaurateur
and then the consumer.

The other thing is the premium
credibility strategy, let's call

it the fact that he has shifted
the conversation very

interestingly on OK, this is
what this XYZ Michelin star chef

or top bartenders says about my
product is not what I say about

my product.
And then the last but not least,

the cultural aspect and what Ben
says is that Seedlip is a nature

company that makes drinks.
Season is an ingredient company

that makes drinks.
Silva Lab is a tree company that

makes drinks.
So you always take the approach

first of what's happening in
your world.

Before the drink.
He mentions the event at the

high end flower shop.
You are there for the flowers

because you love flowers and
then Tri seedlip.

So I hope you enjoyed the
episode, try to think of who are

the 2-3 people in your circle
that would benefit from

listening to this conversation
and share it with them now.

It helps uplift the industry,
uplift the conversation about

non alcohol spirits and category
in general.

TuneIn again for the next
episode.

That's all from the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

And remember that brands are
built bottom up.