101 | Drinks Strategies & Brand Advocacy with Kaitlin Wilkes

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Now let's break it down
together.

Hi, Kate.
Hi.

Welcome to the My Third Drinks
podcast.

Thank you.
We were about to record online.

And then we were so lucky to
realize that we were both going

to be speaking at the Mirror
Hospital, the Expo in

Bratislava.
And we said, why don't we

actually do it in real life?
Real life.

So let's let's start.
You're bringing a fantastic

wealth of experience from
different continents, I would

say.
So give me a short introduction.

How bartending has shaped your
opinion on advocacy and

leadership?
I've been in the drinks industry

for almost 15 years now, which
is really weird because I'm so

young.
I started in the drinks

industry, waitressing, serving
drinks to people, writing my

name upside down at a bar in
Toronto, like, you know, and

across the Atlantic, twerked in
luxury hotels, moved to Sweden,

spent time there, you know, did
a global hotel competition, fell

back into London.
But I guess the short of the

long for me is like being a part
of the hospitality industry sort

of led me down this path of
understanding that if I wanted

to grow in hospitality, there
was a ceiling that would hit

eventually.
I would become a bar owner,

multiple multi site bar owner
and or if I stayed in hotel

school and well, I did.
But if I pursued my hotel school

degree and international hotel
management, I would have gone on

to be a hotel manager.
All of this is to say, it was

super inspiring and interesting
for me, but I really think the

one moment that slipped the
script for me into what is

advocacy was actually doing a
global cocktail competition,

which I'm certain we will get
into later.

But that cocktail competition
taught me about marketing and

advocacy and advocating for
yourself and what you believed

in, putting things on paper and
putting that out there.

And it really made me think
quite deeply on like, how do we

change industry, right?
Like I sort of really sunk my

teeth into the drinks industry
in 2012 at the Savoy in the

American bar as a cocktail
waitress.

And you know, that transpired me
moving to Sweden to become a

bartender and spending years
there and come to London.

When I did that cocktail
competition and learned about

marketing and advocacy, I was
like, if I want to have an

impression, if I want to change
the drinks industry, is doing it

for one bar group of bars or
hotel group going to change the

industry?
Maybe over time, but only in

that space.
If I work with a global brand, I

could work with 10,000
bartenders, 100,000 bartenders

over 25 years.
If I want to change industry and

make it better, more inclusive,
more diverse, more equitable, I

need to find a brand or brands
or platform to inspire and work

with multiple bartenders on a
wider scale.

And that's why I ended up in
advocacy and started my own

consultancy and advocacy a
couple years ago.

I think that's where you can
really see growth when you see

something that was like a bottle
that suddenly like burst into,

like it's in every bar in every
city and every bartender loves

it.
I've seen that happen in my 15

years, so it's kind of cool to
be a part of that now.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack
what you said.

I guess I'll try to follow up
with questions.

During this chat, you mentioned
hospitality brands and you

nailed something that is dear
topic of mine, which is

basically the difference or the
disconnect or the dichotomy or

however you want to call it
between the drinks industries,

the brand side of things and the
hospitality industry, which is

the hotel, restaurant, cafes,
bars.

I I like to see it as 2, two
sides of the same coin metal in

between that touches them, which
is probably the bar or the

bottle or a glass or whatever we
want to call it.

But they are different now.
So how do you see it first of

all?
And where do you see the

disconnect that I mentioned?
I remember standing behind a bar

making a daiquiri and having no
deep connection to the rum brand

I was pouring at the time, and
then flipping the script of

going into that world of that
rum brand and going like, wow,

there's a whole other part of
the industry I didn't know

about.
ANYWAYS, the short of the long

working with Seed Lip really
made me understand that the

drinks industry and the
hospitality industry are two

separate things.
When I realized that, as you

said, what brings us together is
the liquid in the glass.

That disconnect is part and
parcel our own fault in a way.

There was a certain point where
brands were putting the most

expensive, outrageous, crazy
experience in front of

bartenders and giving them the
red carpet, which is cool, but

has maybe had a long term effect
on the expectation that the

brand is responsible for
absolutely everything.

And in a way, of course, we're
selling something for them, so

we need to and bastard them as
well.

But I think the disconnect
really comes down to the fact

that most people pouring the
liquid, bartenders that have

been doing it 3 to 6 to 9 years
don't really have a super deep

interest.
And what is the return on

investment for that bottle for
that brand?

So because there's no deep
interest, the language is not

really going to cross paths.
You see it when a bartender goes

from being a bartender and not
really having too much senior

experience into becoming a brand
ambassador and that sort of

going like, Oh my God, I don't
understand what this corporate

jargon is when they're getting
emails from the distributor or

someone in finance and it's like
they're totally different

because the brand is interested
in selling cases and the

bartender is interested in
selling cocktails.

I think that's where it's at.
I think any drinks brand should

go back to and what you say all
the time worry about selling

cocktails, especially when it
comes to smaller independent

brands because that's what we do
and that's what bartenders can

do.
At the end of the day, when a

bartender is an ambassador for
your brand because they're

picking up a bottle and pouring
with pride because you show up

to their venue, you ask how they
are, are you engaged in an

authentic, meaningful way?
You don't get drunk in their

bar, have a nice professional,
but still authentic relationship

with them.
I think we begin to close that

gap ever so much, but the guy in
finance is never going to fully

understand why there's value in
flying someone from Singapore to

London for three days to do a
guess shift.

They're never going to get it.
At the same time, it is a

marketing exercise.
We constantly use this

discussion as former bartenders
to our seniors like this is a

marketing exercise that we want
to do.

Is it also like a managing
expectations that probably kind

of went wrong in a way?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Maybe managing expectations in a
way.

Maybe it's the fact that we
expected too much for each

other.
Sometimes you don't say enough

of what you need, right?
Like back to relationships and

communication.
If you don't communicate what

you need as a person and you
expect someone to just do it,

it's not going to be done right.
So it's like when you enter a

partnership with a brand, it's
like, you know, put clear

objections, like, what are we
trying to achieve?

Like are we the house X?
Are we the shelf X?

Are we the secondary spirit in
the menu?

What does that look like?
Because what I usually see is

that there is this disconnect of
trade people in big companies

and they get on trade and then
there's XFMCG type people and

they will, I don't want to say
they will never get on trade,

but they have a difficulty in
getting on trade. 100%.

And then the finance people get
into that big bucket.

Is it more like the marketing
team and the entree team, We are

kind of like giving a solution
by partnering with that bar.

So then people get the room gets
very smoky and then is all of a

sudden is like, I really want to
work with Kay so I don't really

care.
We need really didn't nail the

deliverables, but she said yes,
so we have to do it.

And then I sell it internally to
my boss in a way that he's not

going to say no.
And I overstretch it in a way

that you will sell loads of
cocktails and do crazy things

with us.
And then we both know that it's

never going to happen and the
way the KPIs are set are wrong.

That's basically where the ship
is the fan.

Yeah, I think that's exactly
what happens.

But it's true.
If we're going to fly a bar from

London to Singapore or vice
versa, what's the purpose of

this event?
And I think as brands we need to

think about what is the purpose.
The first point of call, I would

choose this as a brand.
If I am in both of those

markets, I would want to pick
one of my biggest brand partners

or volume driven accounts to
come to my city, my home city or

whatever it is that is also an
account of mine.

I would very rarely want to
invest something as a first

time.
However, I have also seen it

work in the other way of doing
something like that as a first

time partnership.
It's about having that

discussion and meeting those
expectations from the get go to

say we want to bring X person
here.

How do you feel about it or do
you want to do it?

But in US doing that, can we
look more at a long term

approach and and partnership
together is kind of the way I

would think about it as much as
what I would hope a bar owner is

thinking about that too.
We have to be very mindful that

if we just continue to fly
people around the world, it's

like what's the point of the
guest shift anyway?

You know what I mean?
The guest shift is becoming this

photo opportunity, which is
cool, but is there something

more?
Can we do more for the

community?
Is there purpose driven in the

gas shift other than just
bringing a bar from London's

drinks to a bar in Singapore?
It's also about the longevity of

that partnership.
If there is already a connection

between these two venues on that
brand, for example, then there

is there is a long tail effect
in both venues.

The issue is often that we claim
a lot of these big companies are

global company.
Ultimately they're very local

companies yes, they all work
inside us or even to get a phone

call and to say, do you know
anybody in Japan that we can

bring in whatever country,
London or Berlin or whatever

they don't know.
And then all of a sudden it's

like because of the beauty and
the curse of entree, this this

kind of short term things is
like we need someone in 10 days

and then all of a sudden it's
like a flights get expensive.

OK, let's get someone from
Warsaw instead.

And I don't really know anybody,
but there is this great

bartender that I have a
relationship with and then of a

saddle.
The original story was very

interesting and grounded in KP
is as well, but then the actual

result is like how it started,
how it went, kind.

Of yeah, yeah.
And again, that comes down to

planning.
I think the best experiences

when it comes to both, you know,
doing a guest shift, having done

them multiple times, having
hosted them a few times, I think

like it comes down to like,
again, who's owning that moment,

right?
If it's single brand funded,

that brand should show up to
that guest shift.

That brand should send multiple
people from their office so they

understand the purpose of that
guest shift.

But single brand funded, the
brand needs to show up and

support that bar.
That's super, super important.

As much as the bar needs to take
ownership for also pushing out

the invite and being personal to
sometimes we just put things

into the ether, into social
media and expect people are

going to show up and comment.
Can you just send Adm and be

like, hey, come along, You know
what I mean?

It takes a few seconds and like,
I think that all comes down to

building partnerships as a brand
to a bar or a bar to a brand.

It's building authentic
connections.

We spoke about mainly, let's
say, big brands, but then we

touched upon like a smaller
brands and in a way the smaller

brands also see these kind of
relationships and advocacy into

kind of like putting the foot in
the door into an outlet.

So what's usually your
recommendation for smaller

brands?
It's twofold.

One, we need to understand that
a small brand is very different

than a multinational
corporation.

That is a misunderstanding.
Right now in the on trade, it's

like if the listing for the menu
in the UK, we operate in menu

listings, which I respect
because that's going to market

the bar and invest in the bar
and some capacity.

But a brand that is not even
hitting 10,000 bottles cannot

pay the 2000 LB listing fee to
be on menu because they'll do it

twice and that's probably 1/4 of
their marketing budget and gone

for the whole country.
It's incredibly hard to justify.

At the same time, if you have
contracts with the big brands.

I've had that and I respect and
I understand it.

And they need to own every
cocktail on the venue.

Can they own 70% of the drink
menu?

Can you leave 30% for
independent brands?

Can you put an independent brand
next to the big guy because it

fits and it works and you want
to because you like the liquid,

you like the ambassador, you
like the business.

You know the business comes and
supports you in in the way that

they can because they're small.
That's the way I like to operate

as an independent contractor.
Maybe that doesn't totally live

the values of the brand wanting
50 mils in the drink and that's

not always going to work.
You've got to find a way to ease

into it and find the right
levers, especially when you

know, if we're working with like
obscure spirits or building

category, which I've, you know,
have experience in doing with,

with Evelyn, for example, it's
like if they want to do a 5050

Evelyn and Gin cocktail, who am
I to say?

It's the creativity of the
bartender, right?

And to be honest, great that
that gin brand is global and

Evelyn is next to it.
Amazing.

People are going to know that
global gin brand Tank Gray.

And they're going to be like, I
don't know what Evelyn is, but I

like Tank Gray and I like
elderflower and I like apples.

So I'll order that drink.
It helps us.

And I think that is a perfect
example of how small brands can

think more of selling cocktails
and the responsibility of the

big brands as well to help breed
creativity.

Because we don't want to see
every bar having the same global

contracts because we're all
making the same Grey Goose

martinis, which are delicious.
But is there more?

Is there different?
Yeah, of course there is.

And we can all alter the spirit
or wrote about the spirit in our

own way.
It's this vicious circle of back

and forth, right?
But it's finding balance.

It's trying to find the way that
you can work with the smaller

brands.
We all started somewhere once,

right?
We all entered the industry in

our own way.
I understand some of these small

brands will come and go.
Some of these small brands will

change direction.
That's totally up to you as the

bar owner, as the bar manager to
decide that if three years down

the line you don't like that
strategy of that brand anymore

or the brand ambassador change.
We're talking about a business

of people here, right?
Big brands hire amazing

ambassadors.
They spend 4 years build the

brand.
That person gets a little burnt

out or exhausted or bored, they
change.

That brand disappears on the.
Pocket very often big companies

have this kind of waves of brand
ambassadors are a thing that's

sometimes like it goes in ways
because then I don't know, Brown

for Money is hiring brand
ambassadors and then William

Grants is firing them and then
Burner Regard is hiring them.

So it's also about
understanding.

I mean, the big players must
understand that they cannot own

bars anymore because it's not
the 90s.

No, it's not, no.
Because there is this thing, I'm

coming from beer and in beer it
used to be very much like, I

mean, obviously it's illegal to
own their own tap, but but at

the same time there was this
thing like this is a Heineken

type of listings.
Asahi type of listing is a

Molson core type of listing,
whatever.

And then like couple of taps
were free and then people were

entering with back bars.
Nowadays, the best bars, the

bartenders have done their due
diligence.

They know already what they want
to have.

And also not all global brands
are big in all countries.

So there's usually five
countries that make 80 to 90% of

the volumes of that brand.
So ultimately, if you are a

brand owner in a market, a brand
that you may know in London has

a huge brand in a country like,
I don't know, Pride, Czech

Republic, it might be very small
and it might play on the same

league as the local.
It's whatever it is.

So it's very different because
you cannot really cluster them.

So it goes back to what you were
saying about relationship, but

also about having clarity again
back to the KPI is what do you

want to achieve from that
listing?

How can you have a partnership
and how do you see that listing

in a bar or cocktail on the menu
within the overall city strategy

and country strategy?
As you said, you know otherwise

to cocktail on the menu you burn
the budget for the whole country

and see you next.
Year, I would rather have 50

accounts pouring 2 to 3 bottles
of my spirit a week because they

love the cocktail it sells.
What than 300 accounts that are

selling what, .5 of a bottle,
.25 of a bottle?

It doesn't seem to add the same
value to me.

I would want to work with places
that are going to go through and

actually move the product,
right?

And I think we forget about
that.

It's like great the listing is
in 400 places but people know is

it trained?
I fear sometimes we try and grow

so fast, we need to be
everywhere all the time.

And that's social media telling
us that.

And that's being online too much
going, Oh my God, I haven't done

the thing in the fastest way.
And it's like, no, no, if we go

slow with purpose and precision,
it doesn't need to be everywhere

all the time.
It's like picking the right

people and slowly growing it.
But also as brands, we need to

return that if they've been
pouring your spirit for four

years and they've really not
charged you a lot for it, or at

a certain point, the brand's got
to give back to that stakeholder

and be like, hey, ex bar
manager, come view the

distillery, come experience this
amazing experience as a thank

you, but also as a let's
reignite our person, let's keep

growing it.
And you've been supporting us

for four years.
Let's keep building it because

maybe it'll end up in more
drinks.

Maybe you'll mention it the next
time you're doing an interview

like this.
That's the thing with advocacy.

It's not something that you can
just measure tomorrow.

I.
Was going to ask you how do we

move out of the transactional
element of this partnership?

You answer when you were
speaking, I was thinking that

probably the issues really on
understanding that we're talking

long term.
We tend to forget that this big

brands judge or whatever they've
been out there for 200 years,

100 years, 70 years, 60 years,
whatever.

They've done that thing
consistently.

Exactly.
In all changes of management

have been waves and ups and
downs.

It is a long term thing.
So you need to put some Kbis

because I'm also against the IT
will work long term trust me

kind of thing clear.
Objectives, but at the same time

it comes back to the brand
funding like what if that small

brand is literally like for
every bottle sold, that is the

money that comes back into their
like advertising promotion.

So like it's going to be a slow
burn, you know what I mean?

So it's also explaining to them
that yes, we're independently

operated and owned.
We are publicly funded,

whatever.
It is like being super

transparent that we are not that
because maybe some people just

expect that you pay what the
Jaguar pays is what you pay.

But it's like, guys, there's a
difference here.

And maybe that bar says no,
sorry, that's the cost, Yeah.

But there's a couple of points.
One thing is the fake it till

you make it thing.
I have a small brand and I want

to pretend I'm a big guy.
And then what I don't understand

in the sense is that I'm harming
myself because to your view as a

head bartender or bar manager,
you are seeing me with the

dollars sign in your eyes.
The other thing is that I may

come from a big company and I
myself may not have done that

shift mentally.
So I still have that big

business card with me and I
haven't realized yet.

That is the issue that it's
about, first of all,

self-awareness.
And then how do you manifest

that self-awareness outwards?
It's living your mission, your

vision, your values.
And I've seen a lot of great

brands come on the market and
you can tell that they just, I'm

not thinking about simple things
like having a drink strategy.

They're not thinking about what
is really their unique selling

point.
Handcrafted.

What is that like?
Everything is pretty much

handcrafted.
I have yet to walk into the

distillery to see it completely
automated.

At some point, somebody's hands
touch that.

But there are brands that are
using that as their full ethos

and brands that are just
mentioning it.

You've got to really think about
your USP.

What is the purpose of this
product?

Some of these brands will never
make it because they'll just

fall by the way, say because
they weren't unique enough.

And that's kind of OK.
You know, every every community,

every corner has a gin.
So you coming into the bar and

offering the 15th gin because
it's local is like, OK, there's

four other local gins.
Like what else?

What else?
Are you doing something to do it

or because there's a purpose in
it?

Because doing something to do it
like just maybe apply to the

multinational corporations that
can employ you and.

You mentioned the drink
strategy.

What is a good drink strategy?
I'm a big fan of a drink

strategy, probably because I'm a
bartender at heart.

I'm a big fan of a drink
strategy that is purposeful to

your brand.
I did one for Evelyn.

Really pleased to send that
Drink strategy off to Difference

Guide and get some great
feedback from Simon and get a

lot of those drinks published on
Different which was super cool

and such a bartender achievement
for me.

The drink Strategy is not for
the top one or 5% of the drinks

industry.
It's for the mid range that are

still learning about spirits and
flavor development that I could

help inspire them to create
something unique.

At the same time, it could be a
cocktail that they go that

works.
Let's plug and play it here.

The drink Strategy is also a
tool for the brand to sample a

simple cocktail to a press
dinner or an article.

Like we don't need to create
something all the time.

A drink strategy for me is a
great tool for a brand to have

to help sell the spirit into
venues, especially if you're

trying to win in the national
accounts for example.

And a great way to showcase the
brand in more consumer facing

things right.
So making Instagram videos a

failure drink strategy, showing
how easy it is.

My drink strategy is I'm never
going to tell you to turn on the

saucepan and add to ingredients.
It's never happening because no

one's going to do it.
It never, ever, ever gone to

cocktail enthusiast house built.
I always use an example of my

uncle or my aunt.
If I go to their places and

they're interested in cocktails,
they're certainly not turning on

a saucepan to make a syrup.
So I always think about going

into a high end grocery store,
shopping around the sodas,

shopping around the bottled
cordials, what's accessible.

You know what fruit hasn't been
used, but it's delicious?

And available.
And available, like it's

available readily there.
Look, the likelihood of someone

even bothering to put things in
a shaker is still probably above

them.
But maybe they might try.

Because it looks simple, right?
It's not about being pretentious

in a strategy.
It's just like putting nice

flavors together, very simply
for the consumer, for the

citizen of the world, if you
will.

And if I get your take right, I
think there's also

misunderstanding on drink
strategy because of that.

You were mentioning something
about scale to drive scale to a

drink in the sense that you
wouldn't go to a mirror bar.

Now we're sitting here trying to
sell your drink strategy, if I

understand correctly, because
they would never accept it

because that part of their DNA
is being creative and I know

what to do.
Tell me what this brand is

about.
Exactly.

What this liquid is about, and
then let's figure it out

together and then go away and
leave me alone and I'll fix it

and I'll do something with it.
Correct, correct.

Exactly.
And that's how you're going to

definitely work maybe in
conversation you would say works

great in espresso Marzini.
I love it with a little bit of

ginger.
Those flavors do work together.

But if you are trying to sell
the brand into a larger listing,

which is what every small brand
or what every brand really does

want is a national listing
because then that's multiple

venues.
It's like put a drink in front

of people in front of the
bartender that is 1 already

costed out for them.
Now in the drink strategies that

I do to shows ABV because now
more than ever, our trend is no

and low.
You know, if we look in the UK

specifically where I'm based,
what the trends are like, show

people, give them every piece of
information you can.

So I can literally open the
book, click through it and go.

Never thought of Raspberry
cordial bourbon and rose

Prosecco, but that sounds
delicious.

You.
Show me some of the way you

convey it.
And it's fantastic to see the

ABV because like I was
discussing this with Brett

Crompton from sessions periods,
for example, many episodes ago,

and we were discussing sometimes
you may not even realize that

your drink may be lower in ABV
than an IPA or than a glass of

wine.
We need to reframe it that we

don't need cocktails to be super
strong all the time.

Can I imbibe on your menu and
have 3 or 4 drinks which would

have been I think something have
two martinis which would have

been knocked over?
Or can I have 3 cocktails that

were 6%, eight percent, 10% ABV
be semi OK?

Like, you know, it is what it
is.

Like it's I, I think we're
talking about if we go into the

top 5% of the drinks that you're
talking about flavour and not

everything has to be super
alcoholic.

If we're doing it from the lens
of brands, obviously they're

going to be a 50 mil of spirit
to start our drinks.

It's like, does it always have
to be that?

Also do the research to
understand the drinking

patterns.
Like what's the most Gould

cocktail in that region?
What is currently trending on

flavours like, you know, be fast
if you know the whole, the

groaning of Prosecco in it was
such an opportunity for the

million Prosecco brands to jump
in and own that space.

I didn't see it at the time,
right?

Or maybe it didn't, the noise
didn't go further enough, who

knows.
So it's like being snappy in

that way to think about drinks
trends specific to the market

and how your drink strategy
might work for the UK, but it

might not for Canada.
And that's currently what I'm

working on now is the same drug
strategy that I've done for the

UK for if y'all, it's going to
be presented in Canada.

And I'm thinking do I need to
rethink one of the drinks

because that's not a popular
flavor As a Canadian, I should

know.
The drinking patterns have

changed.
Not everything fits and it's OK.

That's why you need a drink
strategy that has some variety.

Maybe not 87 cocktails, maybe 3
per SKU is a good place to

start.
And then we go back to the after

the CPS training, the sales team
or the ambassador, whatever it

is to not do the IKEA catalog
thing.

Like here's our drink strategy
and there's 18 drinks here and

you're going to get it delivered
at home.

Try to read it in the
conversation says, OK, he has

already told you that he hates
espresso martini.

OK, that's out now.
He already told you that he

hates whatever, OK And.
That's back to that

authenticity, right?
Like if you're creating a

partnership with a national
account across the UK and they

want to spritz, don't try and
sell them a martini variation.

Deliver them a spritz idea that
is, you know, easy to access,

that is going to save time.
And I think like that's where

people like myself who have the
experience of both the bar and

the commercial, you've got to
think, can that be executed

behind the bar?
Because sometimes these strange

strategies which are done a lot
more in marketing agencies, like

no one's ever thinking about if
real execution.

And because I have that
experience as a bartender, it's

like I am literally envisioning
myself standing behind the

station trying to make this
drink and then thinking how fast

it's going to take.
Does this drink apply to a

volume account or am I asking
them to pick up too many

bottles?
Do they want to actually,

they're not like it's really
understanding.

It goes back again that
authentic connection, like, does

this fit here?
No, move on.

Fine.
Keeping your bartender hat on.

What can leaders do to support
bartenders in this journey to

understand and navigate this
wild ecosystem?

Actually, what I'll be talking
about tomorrow and you're on

your own kid.
As I said, like I fell into

advocacy because I was like,
wait a second.

If I want to like change
industry, I should do it in the

world of brand that can access
and help me grow.

First of all, if we're talking
about from the bar manager down

to junior, it's a simple
question of what do you want to

do in the next three to six
months and how can I help you

achieve it?
It's like not a question that

was asked of me enough when I
was in bars, but it's a question

I asked often now to bartenders
when I'm walking in there to

work with my brand partners
because maybe I can help them,

maybe through my brand partners,
maybe for my network.

I've started doing some coaching
in Edinburgh, just Zoom sessions

because I'm very lucky to travel
a little bit more these days

through the Attic One project
and doing these coaching

sessions.
I basically say to the

bartender, you got 30 minutes of
my time.

We could talk about absolutely
anything related to the industry

come like just book a session
and a lot of them come to me for

cocktail competition support
because I will bang on about how

cocktail competition is a great
thing to do.

It totally changed my career
tenfold when it did Bacardi

Legacy back in 2016, Seventeen.
I wouldn't be sitting in this

chair if I hadn't done that
because I wouldn't have like

really understood or gotten a
taste for what advocacy looks

like and understood that I have
a huge passion in in marketing

brands and storytelling and want
to continue to develop my skill

set there.
And the advice is like asking

the bartender what they want to
do supporting the bartender, but

also help it if you can't help
them as a leader, like point

them in the direction that
could.

But it's time to that person
too, right?

Like not every bartender wants
to become a world famous

award-winning bar.
Maybe the bartender just wants

to stay in the bar for then How
does that become the longevity

thing?
How can I support you to want to

stay here for five years?
Like what you know, are you are

you bringing in enough
interesting concepts into menu

coaching for me is like it's
something that you can do.

I can do anybody that's really
got 10 or more years of

experience in their community
that can give back their time.

Very grateful to have been
recognized this last year of

being one of 100 most
influential in the drinks

industry, which was wild when
that happened.

Yeah, still confused, but also
not like, great.

Cool.
I'm glad that you know me firmly

cementing my flag and the.
We need more women educating and

speaking on a global scale.
And that's why we started the

Article 1 project and have the
database.

Christine started it with me and
getting that recognition was

amazing.
Coaching and giving my time.

That's on me.
If I'm going to be a part of the

Edinburgh drinks community, I
want to make sure that I can be

there for as many bartenders as
possible.

Maybe it's a long term thinking
to these bartenders are going to

go off to do 100 other things,
right?

Can I have been that support
person for those couple of

conversations about cocktail
competitions that might have led

to a different part of their
career?

It's so rewarding to just give
your time.

It's not for everyone.
You can do it if you want to,

you don't have to, but I love
it.

So it's about finding the thing
that matters to you as a leader

and giving your time back if
that's going deep diving into

your technique or helping people
better understand the financial

side of bar ownership.
It's also understanding in your

searching for why?
What do you want to do?

But sometimes people don't know
that answer that don't really

have an answer, but at least
trying to understand and putting

stuff on the table and say if
you want to have a bartending

career, fine.
If you want to, If you want to

do bartending competition, fine.
It's going to look like this.

It's.
Going to be a lot of practice.

It's going to be a lot of time
ironing.

Board out and repeat, repeat,
repeat.

Yeah.
And another point that you had

before you touch upon the
bartending competition.

I mean, yeah, it's always true.
So a question that I have it and

this is like I throw it out
there because also like for many

listeners could be interesting.
I see a lot of people on social

media profile, whether I know
them personally or not, they

tend to do a lot of competition
for all sort of brand.

You have the world class one day
and then there's something from

Bacardi.
So how can bartenders,

especially young bartenders,
navigate this world?

Because very often is seen
rightfully as a launchpad to get

out there in the world.
But there is a risk of overdoing

it, right?
A. 100% understanding that a

cocktail competition is pretty
much a job interview, right?

It's you putting your best
skills forward in that moment.

It goes back to that purpose and
why, but also remembering

bartenders now more than ever
can be a brand like Caitlin

Wolkes the brand versus Caitlin
Wolks the person.

I'm I'm slowly learning are two
different things.

And I didn't really get that
until I was starting to live it.

There is definite overlap of
something's vastly different.

And so if you're going to do
multiple cocktail competitions,

is it just because you're trying
to figure out what you're good

at?
Is it because you want to win

everything?
Like that's not purposeful.

Is it because you're bored?
It's like, can you go back to

your drinks program?
Think about putting that same

creativity into the cocktail
list or do you not have that

opportunity at your bar?
Can you find a bar that will let

you be that creative?
There is a bar that will let you

come in and be as creative as
you want to be.

If it's not where you're at,
move.

You are not a tree you can move.
And if you're not finding the

right opportunity of seek it out
and ask your network.

The bartender is doing the 78
different competitions is not

going to be conducive to
anything.

If they can just pick two or
three in a year, that really is

going to help them move into the
category they want to specialize

in or maybe that kind of
cocktail they want to represent.

Or maybe the two or three brands
they envision themselves working

with on a long term scale.
Maybe they want to open a

whiskey bar, Maybe they want to
do 2W competitions.

Don't do it all.
It's going to dilute your brand

as a person, right?
If you think of yourself as a

brand, what's your vision?
What's your vision, what's your

values, and how do those three
things fit into the drinks

industry and the drinks brands
that we see?

And can you align yourself to
those brands specifically?

There is this element that you
touched upon before on knowing

your place, because it could be
that maybe you are in a group of

bartender friends that do these
things and then you feel like

you have to do it not to feel
any less.

But maybe you just don't want to
do it.

Maybe you don't want to be on
the stage.

Maybe you don't care about being
on the stage.

So there is also this element of
really understanding what you

want to do because there's
nothing wrong in being the

bartender for 15 years at that
bar, at that local bar, in a

middle bar that will never apply
for 50 best bars, Perfect and.

It's amazing.
And one day it ends up on the

list because that person was
there for 15 years, right?

It goes back to self reflection.
If we go back to ourselves in

the industry, who we are, we're
going to do why?

I spend a lot of time reflecting
on my experience as a person.

And I think sometimes with
social media, we're so quickly

to like look ahead and like,
what's next, where to be?

We get distracted.
We're like, oh, I'm not

everywhere.
And it's like so exhausting.

And I find myself getting
wrapped up in it all the time.

But it's like if I take a step
back and reflect, like, where

have I come from?
What is my skill set?

What do I want to develop?
I can answer some of those

things to you, like right here,
right now.

And to listen to the line, I
don't know.

And that's OK.
You don't have to have it all

figured out, right?
And I think that is the other

side of the coin.
You do not need to have it all

figured out.
And in fact you will not because

what you want today might change
in six months or might not be

relevant in a year from now,
right.

So it's also understanding those
elements too when it comes to

the brands we want to work with,
the bars you want to be a part

of the advocacy programs.
Some of that's not going to

matter in five years.
So like OK with the marketing,

but was it consistent?
Did it build over time?

I go, Eric, these people took 10
years, Monica took over a decade

to arrive where they arrived.
But we see an instinct success

and it's like no, no, no time,
consistency, sticking to your

values, finding the brands that
believe what you believe.

Here we are.
They're at the top because it

took a lot of time to get there
and they'll change.

They might move around, but
they'll stay as industry icons.

But also, I mean, you may not
want to travel, you may not want

to, you know, you may want to
have a family and stay with your

kids.
Most of the time it can.

Anything is OK as long as it's
OK for you.

But also you may be local or
regional kind of person.

You don't want to travel, you
want to drive everywhere and you

don't want to take a plane.
Goes back to why are you doing

what you're doing?
Are you going to do you really

want to stay at that bar for 15
years?

Amazing.
Tell us how you stayed inspired

to work there for 15 years.
What drove it?

Was it the paycheck?
Be honest.

And that's what it comes back
to, the humanness and how we're

all very, very different.
There is only one of us.

And so you will find the story
of yourself that you want to

tell.
And I think that's the most

important thing, to Share your
story and who you are as much

and as loud and to everyone you
know as you can.

Fantastic.
So let's wrap it up.

Kate, Are you sure?
You've gone about 18 hours over.

Time already, let's say.
One last final thoughts that you

can leave to the listener.
Listening.

Thank you.
I think yeah, like final

thoughts is like, OK, so you're
an independent brand, you know,

you want to build your footprint
in the on trade again, come back

to finding those handful of
accounts that believe what you

believe.
Invest in them, spend time with

them.
Think about a five year plan

with them and not just a 5 month
plan.

Even if that bar to machine,
just really think about how that

can cement long term.
And then at the same time as a

brand, you hold the purse
strings.

Really think deeply about
writing that check to do the

advocacy piece at X bar that is
just a bartender exchange.

Fine, but can you make sure
there's equal representation?

Can you make sure they're not
just bringing the bar manager,

but actually they're bringing a
junior member of staff who's

going to get so much amazing
experience out of going halfway

around the world to do that
thing?

Can you make sure that's a
diverse group of people?

Can you work with the out of one
project for that?

Sure, we're here if you want,
but it's just about making sure

that those connections you're
doing authentically with

purpose, at pace and politely.
Kate, let us know how people

find you and reach out to you.
Just bug me on Instagram.

I'm a millennial.
I'm on it way too much at

Caitlin S Wilkes or at One
Project.

And yeah, I'd love to do some
work with your bars, your

brands, your businesses to help
support you in the global on

trade.
Fantastic.

Thanks so much, Kate.
It's it's been a pleasure.

No pleasure is literally all
mine.

You listened.
Wow.

Take care.
Thanks for listening to the

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