006 | Hunting Bars: how to start selling a new Drinks Brand in a city | Part 1/2 of the Interview with Mike McGrail from the Drinks Noise Podcast (Edinburgh, UK)

Hello.
I'm Mike McDaniel and this is

episode 2 of the drinks noise
podcast.

Thanks for tuning in today, I'm
interviewing Christmas feel and

on trade marketing specialist,
who delivers, excellent advice,

and a straight-up no-nonsense
way.

So without further Ado, here is
the chat.

So on the line, I have Christmas
feel, he is an expert in the

world of on trade marketing, and
he's joining us today from

Prague in the Czech Republic.
Chris, how are you?

Hi, hi, Mike, thanks for having
me all good, all good here,

thanks.
No, no, you're welcome, thanks

for coming on.
So before we take deep into the

world of on trade marketing,
please do give the listeners a

little history of yourself and
how you're now in the position

to To be able to give the
excellent advice you do in this

world.
Fantastic.

So, so just as a short short
introduction.

So I've been in the industry for
quite a while.

I, I started 20 years ago, more
or less, in, in sales, in the on

trading room, back in Italy,
where I'm from.

And that's where I basically
started to get a acquainted with

drinks Brands and we were doing
some launches of extensions like

then were not cold.
Ideation says, or RTD is yet.

And then I traveled quite a lot
across Europe.

So I lived in six different
countries and working branding

agency's first.
And, and then I join us.

Abby Miller decade ago, 12 years
ago to be exact and and then

I've been working on various
different brand Brands like the

global And steam with soap.
Arenas Cicero, pilsner urquell

grolsch Midler.
Then I moved on to Asahi in the

transition with the acquisition
of a bi and then I moved into

Carlsberg in Copenhagen at the
headquarter and and since the

last three and a half years, I I
work on my own.

So I've set up my own company.
I called my favorite drinks and

and I'm advising mainly Spirits
Brands but also still be Here

and mainly for the European
markets and the u.s.

So, that's, that's in a nutshell
where I'm coming from and where

my experience from the, the
drinks industry and the and

particularly the own trade comes
from.

Great.
Thanks for that.

Chris was certainly an
incredible background that

experience and in very many,
many different markets as well

which is always great experience
to have.

Yeah, I came across you.
I think it's probably unlike

then first of all just you know
someone had liked or commented

on a piece of advice, you'd give
a note and I just thought, wow,

this guy has to be listened to
and I just actually one of the

things I really appreciate.
Appreciate about your advices.

That is just straight to The
point here is the reality of

things and I think I want it, I
want to kind of build this chat

around taking a new, a new spin,
its brand or a challenger brand,

and Advising them on, on the
path to follow without giving

all your secrets away, of
course, Chris because you are a,

you are a business and you've
also got your, your brilliant

newsletter.
The people could sign up to

Anna.
I will definitely let you plug

that at the end but M.
So let's take it back to basics

and a People are listening, will
understand this, but why is the

OWN trade?
Absolutely vital.

When you're you're starting to
build your brand, your product

is ready as in hand and you need
to get it out there.

Why is it on trade Stokey?
Absolutely.

I mean like this is this is a
very interesting question

because I'm I was actually like
a discussing this with quite a

few different leaders last week
in Paris.

The thing is that that's a the
It has been challenged now

during of course, the the
pandemic and a lot of companies

have taken a bit of a strange,
look at it like because of

course, like some companies
haven't lost volume in total

because they kind of like,
recouped from D to C or off

trade.
So they're questioning the

importance of on trade and I'm a
big, big fan of the on trade

because I mean, that's the,
that's the main Channel, where

you can get liquid on lips.
So that would be my first Answer

so, especially if you take a
premium products, I mean youyou

based in Scotland.
So, of course, like that's,

that's a bit of a given.
I do talk about Scotch whiskey

and and if you take a bot, so
that costs, I mean, like 50, 50

pounds to, I don't know, 100
pounds and even more, you want

to be sure before spending that
money of what you're buying, you

know, and you want to try, you
want to have a dram first, you

know?
Before actually, buying the full

bottle.
So what is a better Arena than

than enjoying it in a bar?
Where you actually, there is an

open bolt so that you can that
you can drink and taste.

So that is the, the main point
for me like then, so which is a

very basic Point, as you said,
I'm quite straight forward on

these things.
Then the second one is obviously

the ambience and the experience.
Like, you know, you you can

enjoy the And in, in a natural
environment is like, it's a

little bit like, going to the
zoo, you know, like looking at

the tigers.
Not like, it's not like this is

the perfect Arena.
You know, the brands are enjoyed

in general, in a bar environment
where it's a restaurant.

A bar, of course, it depends on
the occasion, on the category,

but on average, that's the
perfect Arena way to really

experience the brand in a real
life where the brand positioning

Comes to life in the best way
and and then you can actually

start to really understand,
okay?

This is what this brand stands
for in terms of taste.

And in terms of, let's say look
and feel brand imagery and so on

and then I can actually go and
buy it in a shop which is a more

transactional situation and
bring it home and then continue

to consume it in a different
kind of occasion in a home

environment.
Yeah, it's crazy.

And I think that that liquids
ellipse is always going to be

vital, but I love what you're
saying there about the, you

know, the experience, the
atmosphere that the ambience

trying something for the first
time in a bar with friends or

loved ones.
And that kind of aligned

experience can really take it to
the next level.

Instead of, maybe just, I don't
know, going online, ordering the

ball to the house.
And then the first time you

pour, it can be very And they
just can reinforce how, how

amazing that kind of first
encounter with any spinner or

drink can be when it's done.
Well, and of course, the product

has to be excellent, but then
there's the activation of that

and the on traits were possible.
Check also has a massive factor

in that success and so, we
understand why it's important,

but I mean, so let's see, I've
started my grill whiskey, it's a

single malt.
It's premium, of course, I've

got it in hand and I need to
start this distribution in the

organ trade.
How do I decide what type of

value to approach and how do I
go about doing that in an

effective way?
So basically, I mean, like, the

way, the way I see things and
this is based on, you know, my

experience on different
countries.

I mean, I used to think from I
come from a branding background

from branding agency, like back
in the days.

And it was always about consumer
know, like so you you always

look at this, you know, consumer
Target consumer Target Persona,

however, agencies or people call
it.

I'm a little bit skeptic and
More about using that because

for me, it all goes down to the
occasion.

So what is the, what is the
actual occasion that you want to

address?
So you you start to brand from,

let's say, intrinsic and
extrinsic so intrinsic.

So I mean the liquid the you
know, of course in, you know,

for a genie could be Botanicals
for for whiskey, of course is

like the the multigrain and
anything Dude that you using the

finish in barrels and so on.
And then you want to create a

brand positioning that in my
opinion needs to be translated

into a commercial proposition.
So what does that mean in terms

of bars and restaurants?
So always give the example.

Like if you take let's say a
Brands you know you have all

these brand imagery.
Fantastic.

You know people sipping it on
Reebok riverboat In the Lake

Como and so forth.
But if I'm a sales guy in a

wholesaler, you know, what does
that mean for me?

You know, like I cannot just go
and open Google and search best

bars in Milan, best bars in
London, best bars in engine bra,

because that's where everybody
wants to go to.

So of course they are the best
bars in that City but they may

not be the best bars for my
brand.

So I always I always try to
redirect brand owners to To.

What does your brand mean?
In terms of Target occasion?

You know type of bar type of
restaurants or is it?

Are you?
Are you targeting?

I mean now of course like
Whiskey's is more specific, but

it could be like a like a
pre-dinner kind of occasion.

Like it meant imagine like an
aperitif or a vermouth and so on

it could be a more of a, of an
after-dinner kind of occasion.

So you could be a bitter at this
see less of a cognac or whiskey

and so It could be something
that goes with the meal and and

based on that, you have to
transform, you know, you know,

you have to identify the right
outlet for that particular

occasion, so that the brand will
resonate with them then, you

know, and this is the very basic
part.

Then, of course, like your brand
imagery, your brand positioning

comes to life.
So easy.

The more I you, you know, do you
care about sustainability?

So, you may have certain types
of bars that are much more

inclined to have a product that
is focusing on sustainability,

or are you more like a kind of
like a bling-bling kind of

brand?
So then you may go on to certain

type of bars that value the
appearance over other one has

its substance but you know what
I mean?

And you know like so it depends
on the kind of like brand world

that you have created together
with So which is the exact

extrinsic part together with the
intrinsic part with which is

basically The Taste profile and,
and then the liquid in the in

the bottle.
And then basically you really

identify and always say, try to
identify two or three typology

is only and it doesn't matter.
It doesn't mean that you will

not sell elsewhere.
So of course you're going to

scale.
But you need to Niche down to a

handful of Of typology is of
bars.

So you could be like a whiskey
whiskey bar, like a cocktail

bars or it could be, I don't
know, like an Italian

restaurants and seaside venue
like a waterfront venue.

So identified, depending on what
your brand looks like, try to

identify that couple of typology
is that when you talk to a

wholesaler Salesforce basically,
you can redirect and say, These

are the three types of bars that
I want you to go in Edinburgh.

These are the three types of by,
I want you to go to in London

because otherwise, like a lot of
people end up basically like

quoting the 50 best parts or,
you know, like some of the

Michelin star restaurant.
And that's where you know, they

are on anybody hunting list.
Anyway, so it's quite

challenging to actually, you
know, stand out because, you

know, you are Fighting with
busily, all the huge Brands, all

the up-and-coming brands, you
know?

And that's up that's an uphill
situation.

Yeah really really clear their.
Don't think that targeting the

big-ticket top of the top of the
tree bars and venues is going to

be the way to go in the early
days because ultimately getting

in there it's just going to be
an extreme uphill battle.

It sounds like which makes
perfect sense.

So once we, once we have, you
know, identified are are types

of bars or venues that we think
are right for the Front, we've

then got to go and approach
them.

So first and foremost who are
the people that we need to

impress with and within our bar,
less less call a bar, to a get

their time in the first place.
And then at least try to push

towards an order who the big
decision makers.

So this is another very
interesting conversation because

that's it, the way I see it is
that you should.

You should have been, you know,
you should have created demand

before you actually engage them
into the kind of conversation.

And what I mean by this is that
you need, you need like, let's

let's look at two different
parts of one.

The first part is creating the
demand for your brand.

And then the second part, which
is Is your question is,

capturing the demand for your
brand and if you haven't done

the first one, you cannot really
succeed in the latter.

Unless you, of course, you are
lucky, or you have some

connections.
And what I mean by that, is that

before, like, sales people used
to create the demand and capture

the demand at the same time.
So I was a sales guy and I don't

know, 20 years ago, 40 years
ago, I would go to your bar.

And I would basically propose
you some, some Brands and you

would rely on me almost because
like, I would be the one who

knows most of the stuff because
there was no digital.

There was no internet.
You had very few connections and

you only knew people in your
neighborhood kind of thing.

Nowadays, bar owners and bar
managers, and bartenders they

are overwhelmed with
possibilities, so they speak.

You know, they have huge
communities.

WhatsApp groups, you know, all
sorts of social media.

They have a lot of competition
like all the big brands that

are, you know, making them
travel everywhere.

So everybody really knows
already more or less what they

want to list in terms of brands
in their bar.

So how do they want to feel
their back bar?

So if you haven't done that step
of creating the demand, which

Happens on social media.
I mean podcast, you know all

these things that we are
basically doing every day you

and I basically like you and you
risk that you enter a bar and

you start talking to somebody
that doesn't want to buy, you

know?
Like you are basically nuisance

to that person because it's like
hey this is Mike and you know,

who is he and I don't want to
talk to him because I've never

heard about his whiskey and E of
my peers of as mentioned that

whiskey and I'm quite into the
whiskey community.

And if I don't know him, then
probably I don't I don't want to

risk buying a bottle from him
because he will collect dust on

my shelf.
So so, so that that is that is

the risky bit.
And of course it's this is this

is a long-term game.
I mean it's is not easy, but

this is really needed because
that's how I mean, that's how we

met, you know, like, you know we
we we got in touch on on I think

was LinkedIn and you know, it's
by bringing our messages out

there that we start to engage
with each other and then we End

up, you know, knowing each other
and soaking about each other and

trusting each other kind of
thing.

So it's a bit of a long path in.
You know, like to really build

your brand that happens outside
of the bar.

And then you go into the bar and
engage with the bartender with,

you know, with a bar owner and
so on.

And what I always say is that,
once that you're doing that

step, don't only take.
The fancy routing.

So the say so I don't only ask
for the owner as for the Burr

manager because there's a lot of
people, you know, from from the

the the let's say the let's call
it like the lower end of the, of

the bars of, from back, from the
back, from the bar, back up to

the up the chain.
That actually can drive the

decision, making process process
for you.

And and it's, it's going.
Be quite challenging to get the

phone number or the email
address of the owner because

most probably like the owner is
never there and there is a bar

manager that the pretense is not
in charge of decisions and so on

so that you are going to end up
in this kind of like bouncing

left and right on.
Come back in two weeks, come

back in next month and the owner
is on holidays and you know,

leave me a sample.
I'll talk to them and so forth.

So try to really build this the
bottom up once that you have the

opportunity and and take really
like this kind of like routes

that, you know, it seems to be
very long long-term like a very

long-term game but that's
actually the more organic thing

you can do my opinion.
Yeah.

Absolute gold there.
And you're absolutely right on a

day-to-day basis.
And, and my, my role in whiskey,

I am consumer-facing, but I have
to start at the top of the

marketing funnel, which is the
awareness of the brands in the

first place.
And then push people into words

consideration and preference and
you're doing that exactly in

this scenario.
But, okay, we can classes B2B.

But ultimately, everybody's a
consumer and I think especially

in something like that.
The entree light, you see,

you've got this.
Real Community around bartenders

and they're not talking about
your Brand's when you walk in

there.
Like, you see then, yeah.

It's going to be really
difficult to get in there and

it's almost like the bartender
can really become the champion

for you.
Can't they they can, they can

say to their bar manager.
I've been hearing about this

brand.
They dropped in today, here's a

sample, we should really
consider this.

And yes, sometimes people always
think in any business to

business marketing scenario,
that You got to go to the top of

the tree but getting their
attention is always difficult,

right?
Absolutely, absolutely.

And then, and then and this is
the challenge because once that

you have your own brand then you
want to rush it.

You know you want to start
selling.

But the thing is that you'd like
you know like you you risk to

like the risk is too high to get
the the door on your face and

imagine like people are now like
contacted by random people every

day, you know, Several times a
day so it's not anymore like it

used to be back in the days that
one salesperson would step in

you know once a day you know now
I have it.

Did they basically always having
to find excuses like no sorry

the owner is not here.
Now the bar managers not here,

you know I've seen it happen so
many times, you know the owner

was pretending to be a you know
a waiter just to just to get rid

of somebody someone really hard
you know and that's that's what

that's what happens, the like
it's that's that's the Reality

unfortunately.
So do you have to really create

this community and really put
the foot in the door so that

people start to talk about you.
And also the other advice I

would give and I always give is
that, you know, be a consumer.

So be a customer before becoming
a seller.

So enter that bar have a drink,
you know that that should be the

first marketing investment you
do in a bar, you know, like

don't just go there with a
backpack full of bottles.

And ask for the owner to sell
them something, you know, sit at

the bar chill during off-peak
Times, Obviously, you know,

speak to the bartender.
When like he or she is less busy

and say look how like you know
I'd like to drink something in a

start, engage them in a
conversation, start to get

insights from them, or what do
you, what do you usually?

What do you recommend?
What's what you like and start

to get into the conversation
with them?

And then maybe, maybe not even
that day, maybe.

Not a next time we're at the end
of the session.

You actually say well actually I
have my own whiskey you know do

you want to do?
You want to taste it?

Oh maybe I can stop by next week
for for existing would you and

your bar manager you know and
that's a different kind of

conversation because you know
you bought a drink, you left the

tip and then it's a really loud.
Okay.

This guy's is actually, you
know, you know, much more, you

know, it's not it's not that say
Z and is Not that.

Pushy like the previous guys
wear.