044 | Food & Drink Photography: How to start a career Bottom-up | Part 1/2 with Francesco Sapienza (New York City, USA)

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Maffeo.
In episode 44, I had the

pleasure to chat with one of my
best friends, Francesco

Zapianza.
He's a New York based food and

drink photographer, an engineer
by trade.

He left a successful.
Career in Stockholm, Sweden To

pursue his dream in New York
City, we spoke about how to best

work with the different players
in the hospitality ecosystem.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Hi and welcome to the Macphail

Drinks Podcast.
Today we have the pleasure to

welcome Francesco Zapienza from
Francesco Zapienza Photography

from New York.
We are meeting here in Naples.

We happen to be here at the same
time, so we took the chance to

do a video podcast.
We don't know yet if we're going

to publish the video or the
audio, but or.

None of them.
Or none of them.

But I hope you will enjoy it.
Francesca, welcome.

Thank you.
Good to see you.

Good to see you.
I've known you for quite a few

years.
Yes.

So we are long time friends from
Helsinki and Stockholm.

Then I moved to Prague, almost
at the same time you moved to

New York.
Yeah.

We haven't met since 20/19/2019,
so it's been a pleasure to meet

you yesterday and have finally
Napoli, Donna, Peritivo

together.
So the reason why I I wanted to

welcome Francesco to the podcast
is because we are working the

same ecosystem of the drinks,
the food and drinks world and

hospitality sector but from a
very different perspective.

And we talk everyday on the
phone when Francesco is having

his stroll to to his office and
I'm somewhere either in the

office or in my Home Office and
we always keep each other up to

date and we challenge each other
on our business.

And and we found out that we
discovered that actually what we

do is very similar in a bottom
up way.

We are selling to the same
customers which is bars and

restaurant owners and chefs or
head bartenders and so on.

So Francisco, tell us about you.
Well, short shortly.

I'm an electrical engineer and I
just quit my job one day and

decided to become a photographer
and fought my family and all my

friends who said no, don't do it
and what's it?

What was it, 2006?
So that's a long time.

I had a long business experience
from my engineering career and I

transitioned into photography
and slowly.

I didn't want to become a
starting artist at 35 years of

age.
When I fell in love with

photography, it was just
portraiture.

That's what I wanted to do When
I moved to New York, I realized

there was a lot of very strong
restaurant scene and food scene

and I happened to to take some
gigs because I didn't.

I didn't have many clients when
I moved to New York.

And then the one thing led to
the other and I found myself

becoming a professional food
photographer and that's now 90%

of my business.
That was very bottom up.

Very, very, very very very
bottom up.

I knew what I wanted to become.
I didn't know exactly what, what

genre of photography I wanted to
to deal with.

I didn't even know that you
could choose.

I thought the photographer is a
photographer.

But no specialization is is key
and especially in a in a market

like New York, you cannot have
three hats or two hats.

You you just you.
You have to stick to one hat or

people won't remember you.
Even if you're great at 5

different genres of photography,
you still need to be labeled as

the expert in food photography
or portrait photography,

whatever that is.
So let me let me jump in because

this, the photographer is not a
generic photographer.

Reminds me of what I'm always
talking about.

The target occasion and target
outlets and being targeted and

and the famous niching down.
So like choose your own niche

and and be famous and own that
niche and become the category

king or king of your niche or
your niche of one or however we

want to call it.
So how did you choose your

niche?
True story or just the story for

the public?
Both.

As I said, I was in love with
portraiture, but I got the and

offered for a huge gig in food.
It was a very big project.

I was very excited about a big
project, you know, not just the

money, but also the the
experience of of dealing with

different types of people.
And it was about photographing

500 products for a very famous
brand.

And I realized that oh, this can
be fun.

Products may be not as fun as
food in an editorial context,

but that was fun.
And then right after that, I was

somehow recommended to a very
big publishing company, Rizzoli

International, so in the US.
And they sent me a book, my

first book about food
photography.

So I mean, you started pretty,
pretty big with your first one,

yeah?
Some stars aligned and it

happened and it went very, very
well and I realized that this

is, this is fun.
I I I could do this, so why not?

And I I have not niche down at
all at that.

At that time I was still still
pursuing the the portraiture

venue, but the food gigs were
coming in and that was super

exciting because I was working
the end of the day.

Yeah, I mean, move to New York.
You want to work, otherwise

you're not going to survive.
Otherwise, you're in LA or.

Miami.
And for those who don't know,

like the book was Italy the?
Yeah, the book was very, very

big.
And I was.

I have a sign.
Copy.

Crazy excited.
Yeah, I remember that.

So that that's that's how it
started.

And then after that I when I
started sending my book to

different companies and that was
maybe more I I wouldn't say cold

calling or or cold emailing
different companies, but I'm

pretty shy.
It's very hard for me to kind of

sell what I do.
But I figure, OK, I can send the

book, you know, and you just
need an address and a name.

So I set the book out, and
people were not responding.

They were not even thanking me
for the book.

And I'm like, what is this?
So I started calling people and

say, hey, did you get my book?
And I got in touch with the New

York Times.
The person that got the book at

that time, she said, yes, I got
the book.

Thank you so much.
Yeah, of course I would like to

work with you.
And I'm like, really?

So.
And that was like the the door

to the restaurant scene, which I
had not explored a lot because I

was going for the big brand, the
advertising stuff.

I never thought that there could
be such a strong market for food

photography within the
restaurant scene.

And we're talking more than 10
years ago, So social media were

were not exactly what they are
today.

So restaurants were not really
interested in in in social media

photography at all.
But I got in touch.

I met so many restaurants
because I was doing all the

reviews for the New York Times.
So the critic would go there,

eat, and then they would tell
the New York Times, OK, I want

you to take photos of these
dishes because they were the

dishes that the food critic had
had eaten at the restaurant.

And we would come at separate
times.

And of course they didn't.
They would know that the food

critic was coming because, you
know, you're not allowed to be

prepared.
But for me it was just coming in

and booking a shoot with the
restaurant and taking the shots

of the of those foods.
They would go into the review of

the restaurant and so that way I
met so many people in the

restaurant world, I kind of fell
in love with with that world and

and many of them ended up hiring
me afterwards after they had

worked with me for that hour and
a half that I was there.

So that was a great way of
connecting with people that

wasn't even intended to be that
way.

I just wanted to do the gig for
the New York Times, but I ended

up meeting so many people and
many of them became clients on

the line.
So that was very interesting,

very, very bottom up.
I mean, they started by working

with me and seeing how I worked
without even paying me because

they I was paid by the New York
Times to to just take the photos

of the food.
And so the restaurant could have

a first hand experience of what
it was like to work with me,

which was great for me.
And once you have the personal

connection, it's so much easier,
you know, even to knock on the

door and say, hey, do you need
the photographer rather than

call emailing or call calling
people you've never met?

Which reminds me all of what the
industry goes.

The liquid on lips know, so the,
you know, the free sampling.

So you are trying the the drinks
brand.

In this case, you know, somebody
offered it to you so they bought

you an expensive whiskey or a
nice gin or a nice drink.

And then afterwards you actually
say, oh actually I like it, I

want to buy a bottle now because
I tried it.

It was actually even free or you
can pay for it and so on.

But how?
So let me think from my

experience and trying to relate
to what you do, let's say in a

way you you picked your city,
which is New York City.

Part of my philosophy at least
is like it's own that city

before moving on to the next
one.

So be famous in in your city.
You've got, what, thousands of

restaurants and bars in New York
City?

I mean, if you take the greater
New York metropolitan area, So

how?
How do you choose?

I mean, that's not your cake in
a way, because I I would assume

that your cake is much smaller
than all those thousands of, you

know, kebab shops and of course,
corner pizza.

You know, New York pizza by this
lies.

How do you choose your city?
How?

Like how do you choose your
target customers?

There's a lot of customers.
They come through word of mouth

because I've worked with
somebody or they find me online.

But then there are customers I
try and go after in a way.

And I look at their aesthetics.
I look at what they do online in

terms of campaigns, in terms of
what kind of visuals they post

and and I look at the brand I
like to work with, with brands

that inspire me.
And in case of restaurants, you

know, it's also places where
I've been and maybe I happen to

go eat at the restaurant and I
like the decor.

I like the way that the stuff
works.

I like the hospitality that they
offer you.

And then you maybe realize, oh,
this could be a nice client

because I'm really like liking
the experience of being there.

And since I also want to offer
an experience of hospitality, if

I can say so with my services,
I'm happy when I can find a

brand that I can resonate with.
So I I would say that by looking

at what what they do already now
and if I have first hand

experience with their services
then of course that that helps

as well.
The pool is is huge still, even

if you just restrict yourself to
the brands that you might be

interested in for for one reason
or or another.

Wow.
And let let us let's say dive

into the restaurants and bar
world.

Our listeners are from the
drinks ecosystem and the black

hole of hospitality.
You know, it's the how to work

with, with bars, no, because
from a bar perspective, there's

bartenders, bar managers,
owners, you know, there's many

players within the ecosystem
that are making decisions.

And in restaurant as well, I
mean there are some restaurants

that are owned by a chain, by a
big group by is like more of a

mom and pop, one in the kitchen,
one at the table.

So you mentioned the brand that
that's the most visible thing

that you can find online.
But then ultimately it's a

people's business now.
So what role does the person

play?
And 1st question and the second

question is who is the actual
decision maker in your world?

That changes depending on the
business.

There's definitely businesses
that have everything in house,

meaning that their communication
is made in house, so they have

their marketing department, in
which case I would deal directly

with with them.
Other brands have agencies that

do their marketing, their
communication, they are

everything, in which case they
will be the interface with me.

So sometimes I get contacted by
agencies.

It could be PR agencies or
social media agencies or just ad

agencies that work with the
restaurant as a client and they

find me or recommended to work
with me through referrals and

then so that's my interface.
In other cases, smaller places,

it might be the restaurant
owner, it might be the

restaurant manager.
So it depends on how they

structure their communication.
Because I'm part of the

communication.
I mean, my images are just a

piece of of the entire puzzle.
Because the way they communicate

for this, their their message
and everything.

I'm a piece that needs to fit
there.

And ultimately I am solving a
problem for them.

I'm creating images that they
use to talk about something, to

communicate a message.
So they don't hire me.

Of course they hire me because
they like the photos, but it's

not that they wanna hang the
photos on the wall.

I'm solving an actual problem by
giving them by delivering them

photos, which is help them
communicate what they stand for.

So can I say that basically you
are almost like an ingredients

of their menu?
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.
If you're cooking and one of the

ingredients is not good enough,
that's gonna affect the final

result.
So they're not cooking to eat

the meal by themselves, they
cook the meal for their

customers.
And so your photos are a tool to

help them sell more or advertise
or get more fruitful in or,

yeah.
Definitely reinforce their brand

and be more recognized for what
they want to stand for.

Ultimately, that's what the
brand.

Is about what I'm thinking is
that I I'm having this kind of

conversation with, with many
industry players that from a bar

perspective, a bartender or bar
manager is an expert, he or she

knows what they want.
So in terms of brands and so on.

But I feel that sometimes that's
a little bit overestimated

because you know, not always
they know what they want.

You know, they may think they
know what they want, so they may

think they need 15 gins on their
back bar, but maybe they

actually need 4.
So by reading the menu online or

going there and asking for the
menu and seeing that this bar

has got 15 gins, you may think,
OK, this is the gym bar, so I'm

going to sell them the 16th,
while actually like it would be

much better to redirect them and
say actually you don't need 15,

you will need 4 and let me be
one of the four.

And that is actually like
something in which they are

professionals because they are
bartenders, So they know brands

and gems and spirits, but
they're not photographers, so

they're not professional
professionals in your field.

So you are selling them a
service that is actually not

their in their, let's say
capabilities, so.

Oh, you you mean they're not
able, not always able, to judge

the quality?
Yeah, They don't know exactly

what they need.
So they know.

They know they need a photo,
yeah, but they don't know

exactly how that works.
So that happens.

How much does that cost?
What can I what can they use

that photo for?
If it's a good photo or a bad

photo?
If a Photo by an iPhone from an

influencer is enough, or if they
actually need a professional.

So how how would you navigate?
That I would say that's one of

the ways that I normally use to
kind of filter and get a sense

for the client and if I really
want to work with them how

organized they are and if they
know what they need and why.

If they're on top of things from
up here, I mean their

communication is clear.
And then I was talking about

before that piece of the puzzle
that I am.

So I just have to to just match
match what their expectations

are and everything is pretty
defined as opposed to clients

who as you said, they just know
that they need photos,

professional photos, but they
don't know what kind of photos,

they don't know how to use them.
And in that case, I almost feel

like it's a waste of their
resources to hire somebody and

spend money on professional
photography when you don't

really know what you're trying
to communicate and you.

So maybe it's bad business on my
end, but I try and talk to them

and make sure that that they
know why They ask for some

photos and tell it.
Guys, are you are you really

sure that you need this?
Because this, to me, from what

I'm hearing, doesn't make a lot
of sense or I'm not hearing

anything so I don't even know
where to go.

Because if your message is not
clear how am I supposed to

direct the photos even if I take
responsibility for deciding what

to shoot, I mean it's wide open,
you can go any direction I need

to have information from you and
if that information is lacking

then in many cases I say yes of
course I'll I'll do the photo

shoot.
But I think you might want to

direct your efforts in a
different way and 1st realize

what you want to communicate and
then hire me and and I think

it's going to be more
successful.

And then that also brings to
clients who having a client who

know who knows what they want,
of course creates business in

the future as well because then
it becomes so much easier to

work with them.
I start to know the brand, they

know me, they know that they can
just say I want this feeling and

then I need five photos.
You you figure out the shop list

and I can do that.
But if it's not clear where

we're going, it's becomes very,
very hard for me.

So those clients who know where
they want to go, those, those

are with great clients,
everything becomes so much

easier and their effort has a
return immediately because it's

part of a harmonized, concerted
effort.

Photos, language, tone and
everything.

And of course, that brings
results as opposed to, yeah,

let's just have a nice photo of
the cheesecake and then post it

there and hope that that's going
to sell more.

It reminds me of when
restaurants are buying the best

equipment in the kitchen and
then they're lacking a chef or

best brands and best back bar in
in a bar.

And then they're lacking a
professional team.

But then they say, oh, but look
at my back bar.

You know I've got the best
products here like, but you're

lacking skills.
But how do you create demand

for, let's say, to avoid the
wrong kind of customers to

contact you in the 1st place?
Because.

You know, are you doing some
communication from your end that

helps that guidance so that
actually they may want to

contact you and then they read,
I don't know, a blog or a

website or your social media.
And then they actually say,

actually this is not the right
person for me because you make

them realize that they actually
didn't know exactly what they

wanted.
Or or actually the other.

The other way around is like,
you know, people that have been

skeptical and they were taking
photos by themselves and then

they realized like, wow,
actually I need a guy like them,

like him.
Yes, where?

Where do we start?
I would say that I I try and and

and be a source of information
for restaurant owners,

restaurant managers or in
general brands in the food

business by writing A blog.
I have a blog where I talk about

photography and most of the
stuff is not really technical

because my clients, they don't
want to become photographers.

Some may benefit from knowing a
little bit more about food,

photography and so on a on a
certain level, very low level,

you can kind of, you know, guide
them through basic stuff.

But at the end of the day, I
know that many of them don't

even have experience of working
with professional photographers.

And I would like to help them
and make things a little bit

more clear so they know what we
are expecting.

We as professional photographers
from them and so that they

realize a little bit better what
they need.

And also going back to the
question about their messaging,

they realize that maybe they
don't know certain things.

They should figure those out
first before coming to us.

I'm trying to help them my
clients to understand how it

works in professional
photography.

So things for example usage
rights.

Most people don't know what they
are and they're not supposed to

know.
If they're restaurant owners.

I mean, yeah, to some extent
they they might need to know,

but it's not their core
business.

So I think it's important that
they are informed about what

they're buying in terms of of
service.

So am I buying photos that I can
use on a billboard in Times

Square, or am I buying photos
that I can use on social media

on a Facebook page?
It makes a huge difference.

So if you can understand a
little bit better what it means

to buy a service from
professional photographer, then

of course it's going to be
easier for you to navigate the

world of professional food
photography.

And even choose a photographer
doesn't have to be me.

So I I like to help that way,
and I require certain things

depending on the shoots that
we're going to do.

One thing that I normally
require for social media shoots,

for example, is that they take
care of their shop list.

It needs to be crystal clear
what we're doing and if that's

not in place, I'm not gonna
shoot because you're wasting

your money and time.
I'm wasting my time.

The two main take away from me
are, you know, the fact that

you're actually helping also
your competitors.

Yeah, because you're.
You're helping restaurants

understand how to deal with
photographers in general.

Professional professional
photographers first and then

they may choose you over them,
but and then the second thing is

that you are helping them, let's
say buy the right car.

You know, like you avoid that
they buy a Ferrari if they live

in a pedestrian area and vice
versa.

You should work as my
communication manager.

Yeah, I'll send you an invoice,
but that's correct.

I enjoy helping them because at
the end of the day, I'm helping

myself in a way, because the
people who listen to me will

learn stuff that will help them
work with me or another one.

But I also know that they they
know about this stuff in a way,

because I've talked about that.
And if they can Remember Me

because I taught them something
that they have never understood,

that, that's fantastic.
Yeah.

And also, it's a positive circle
in a way because, I mean, you

are actually helping them not
get kind of like robbed or

spoiled by competitors and not
because they are cheating, but

just like because they're
selling them a product they they

actually didn't need.
Because, you know, like a, a

restaurant owned by, I don't
know, husband and wife, it's

useless that they say, oh, it
cost this much, but you can

actually use it on a billboard
in Times Square because they're

never going to afford a
billboard in Times Square.

So actually they just need, I
don't know, social media rights

and vice versa.
You know, you are redirecting

them in a positive way so that
they don't feel that they don't

need a photographer because it's
felt almost like a lawyer, like

a very expensive professional
that they actually can avoid

using.
That's correct in that sense.

Oh, so the question was, yeah,
how do you build demand in a

way?
And so I was trying to answer

that question about the
information that I try and put

out about professional food
photography and how that can

help.
By helping them realize what

they need.
And by making me the person

who's telling them, of course,
reinforces my brand.

It reinforces the fact that I'm
there to help them, no matter if

they pay me or not.
Yeah, absolutely.

I'm I'm that information is free
and I think that helps everybody

at the end of the day.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 44 and 45.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insight about building

brands from the bottom up.