039 | Founding a Drinks Brand: turning the Feudal system upside down | Part 1/2 with Julian Davies, Founder of Ostara Vermouth (London, UK)

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 39, I finally caught

up with my old friend and
colleague Julian Davis.

He started as a sales guy for
stellar twine in the UK, then

moved to SCB Miller where he
wrote the brand building

strategy before taking a senior
marketing role at Bombay

Sapphire.
He now consult startups and is

the founder of Ostara English
Vermouth.

I hope you enjoy our chat.
Hi, Julian, how you doing?

I'm really good.
Thanks mate.

How are you?
I'm good.

I'm good.
It's it's nice and cold here

with minus degrees.
It's one of those days that I

remember.
I'm from Rome and I'm not made

for this kind of weather, but
it's OK.

It's this is this has gone wrong
already, mate.

I'm the British guy and I'm
supposed to speak about the

weather 1st, and you're supposed
to just tolerate that.

But I can talk to you about the
weather if you want.

It's snowing here.
I think so, yeah, I'm just

trying to stay warm myself.
No, it's good to talk to you,

mate.
So this is, this is a great

episode.
We've been waiting to to do a

session for for ages.
It's long.

It's long overdue.
And I mean people may have heard

already, you know our
interaction back in the days of

Clubhouse when we had our our
room called winning with drinks

reset in the room.
And it was cool for well, like 6

months I'd say.
And then everything reopened and

then everybody basically like
nobody wanted to be on Clubhouse

anymore.
And then it all went weird and

and we stopped it.
There was.

There was, it was heady times,
my friend, you know, feeling

like a sort of COVID celebrity
on cloud.

It was great.
I remember you phoning me and

telling me that, you know, we
were just chatting, weren't we?

We'd been chatting for hours and
hours and hours and just going,

hey, this is really smart, other
people should hear this.

It kind of went from there and
it was great to be sort of

reconnected with so many old
friends on that for a little for

a little while and it was a lot
of fun, no, but I I've been

looking forward to this
conversation as well, so.

Like you know and then we made a
lot of friends and you know many

of them are actually you know,
part of this podcast and this

conversation.
So it's a nice continuation of

that.
And also like another point to

to raise is that actually you
know you are the guilty one to

make me interesting into this
way of building premium brands.

I I still remember the first
time we met and you know in in

in walking in the office and
then you were teaching me how to

build global brands.
I've been on the receiving side

of of of things from the global
brands way and and how to build

global brands and that that got
me into really digging into I

want to know more and I want to
do more and I want to understand

more how how these things happen
it's.

Very kind of you to say mate.
I love doing that global brands

way stuff.
And my my memory of it is

working as almost a sort of
subculture within a big

monstrous Brewing Company that
could open up 90% distribution

very quickly in any market that
it chose to.

And then a small little gang of
us trying to convince people

about another way of doing
things and how to build brands

slowly and patiently and kind of
go through all that process.

And yeah, that was the start of
it really for me.

And one of the probably one of
the best times of my career was

going out and and meeting people
like you because you kind of

bring this effectively academic
exercise in a way to people,

cool guys like you meeting this
cool Italian guy I remember and

thinking God, what's he going to
think of me with my little

textbook.
But, but but to see that kind of

taken and then and and you guys
operating in in bars as you were

and and seeing that it sort of
worked for you guys made me

realize that it was kind of
definitely the right approach

And that yeah that was our sort
of first, our first foray into

doing it.
And that's I I don't like to

think about how many years ago
that was now because it makes me

feel a bit old.
But that was our first, no, our

first dealings with each other,
and that's great to be still

talking to you about it now.
Absolutely.

And it's a little bit what you
said in the beginning the the

interaction, you know, the
continuous interaction that

we've been having since since we
met in always kind of like

challenging each other and
bringing the academic side of

things down to like a very
pragmatic level.

And then you know keeping each
other from derailing, not going

to fluffy and not going to
pragmatic at the same time

because it's easy to go wild
into grabbing opportunity.

And then it's also easy to go
wide into the ivory tower kind

of thing.
And and one of the things that I

took from your sessions back
then was that it's easy to get

it for people who get it, but
then it's very complicated for

people who don't get it.
And that's what I'm trying to do

with this whole thing about
bring building from the bottom

up.
Because, you know, for some

people it's enough to actually
read a post of mine or or listen

to one episode of mine or a
training of yours.

But then, you know, for some
other people, they actually want

to say, yeah, but what do I
actually have to tell the

bartender what?
Where do I actually map the

city?
How do I actually find the right

bars?
And they need to understand it

better.
And then there is a need for

actually deep diving into how do
we actually bring this to life.

And we make it easy to
understand for everyone, not

only for people who get it.
Yeah, I think I'm thinking back

to those days as well.
If you remember one of the big

breakthroughs we had was to
start talking to people about

certain types of behaviours and
a mindset and and almost like a

philosophical approach as
opposed to trying to outlogic

them, if that makes sense.
So if someone logically

disagrees with the process and
building brands from the bottom

up, then it's quite hard to
outlogic them on that.

But what you can do is talk
about, as I said, a set of

behaviours and a way of doing
things and and almost like a

philosophy and people are either
going to respond to that nicely

and want to do it and want to
get out into the trade and see

it all or not.
And I'm definitely in the camp

of people.
The reason I work in the alcohol

industry and have worked in the
alcohol industry is because I

love it.
It's because I love bars.

My first job was washing dishes
behind my local pub and and then

graduating to serving the old
boys as they'd come in and

memorizing what pint everybody
had to have and that would

that's a tough job and but I but
I loved that and so if if you

love the hospitality world,
that's why we don't work in

investment banking or work
selling toilet roll and all that

kind of stuff.
And so there's got to be an

emotional difference and an
emotional reason why we do that.

And part of that is to want to
sit at the bar and enjoy drinks

and enjoy these brands and
really take it all in.

I think was it Paul one one of
your other one of your other

guests talking about getting
insights from the bar rather

than from focus groups and I
that's it's I love that episode

because then you know what
you've got is so many different

types of people who are bringing
their expertise be it insights

or sales or whatever it is.
But but we're all sort of the

common ground if you like is the
philosophy of wanting to do this

in the right way and wanting to
sort of be respectful and

deferential to the trade.
And if that's your start point,

I think that's then it becomes,
I think to your point a little

bit more obvious or a little bit
more likely that you'll want to

do things in this as it were,
right more more patient way.

Because you respect the trade,
you respect the bartenders that

are driving it, you respect the
consumers that are coming in and

you understand that to earn to
earn their respect takes time,

takes consistency of the right
approach, takes a lot of

patience and it's not always
easy to do right.

And so that we're we're always
struggling with this compromise

or with this dichotomy if you
want to call it that whether

we're a startup or a or a or a
big brand of kind of cash flow

and and sales versus you know
the philosophy of doing the

right thing.
And I remember you and I within

the organization of SNB Miller
which was a great company always

sort of fighting that fight for
the philosophical approach of of

taking your time and building
brands for for long term

profitability and cultures.
I think it's a spectrum, don't

they?
Company cultures either get that

100% or they get it 2030% and so
within that you're you're either

fighting or or surfing a wave of
that culture, if that makes

sense.
Absolutely, absolutely.

Totally agree.
And and and The thing is that

it's very interesting what
you're saying because people

that interact with me on on
LinkedIn or Instagram or the

newsletter or the podcast and so
on, I'm, I'm getting more and

more every week now.
Notes from people, you know,

like that they love my podcast
or they love that, you know, and

then they're changing the the
way they look at things.

And that comes from people that
are starting a brand or people

that are working in big
companies.

And even within that those big
organizations.

You know, I've got people from
all sort of like huge companies

because you always find the
people that actually want to do

things in a different way and
sometimes they've got the

mandate to do that.
You know like we had because we

were the kind of like agile team
within within I I like to to

think myself was what team
although I'm a little bit less

fit than than those guys.
But I've never really worked in

a huge organization in a huge
local market.

Now I've always been the the
export guy or the OR the import

guy depending how you look at
it.

But but that's that's the
ultimate way of how to do those

those things in terms of brand
building and so on.

And and again like talking about
you know how do we make things

work is that I've been for
example in both roles like a

more central regional European
or global roles been then also

like having my own PNL as a
country manager.

And then sometimes I used to
think about you and about our

own discussions like thinking
like what the hell, you know,

like if these guys knew how to
really make it work for the

bottom line rather than
preaching.

And then I I became the preacher
and then I became the

challenger.
And and it it is that thin

balance between those things
that is not there's no right or

wrong.
There's no, like, you know, it

has to take five years.
It has to take two years.

It's just like you need to grasp
the opportunities.

You need to be pragmatic, but at
the same time you need to have a

certain direction that will not
jeopardize your brand for the

long term.
Because there's nothing wrong in

doing a small promo to get some,
you know, palettes out there.

As long as it doesn't basically
like, mess up your brand equity

in a way that then next month or
next year you're never going to

reach that budget.
Because, you know, you're

basically mainstreamized if
that's the term, your brand.

Yeah, gosh, I mean, there's a
lot to unpack even even within

what you've just said.
But I think one of the ways I, I

think about this is that in the
end even if you're a startup,

one man band type brand, so the
inevitable life cycle of a brand

is to hit the mainstream, IE to
hit a certain scale, a certain

market share, a full cross
section of society was buying

your brand.
And almost then by definition to

be fighting against sales on
promo, you know price erosion

and all those kind of good
things in in many ways that's

the definition of success,
right?

That's if if we start our brand,
we're hoping we get to that

point right and that that brings
its own challenges.

And we used to talk about this
kind of inevitable life cycle of

a brand.
Because if you hit that certain

point of scale and you're
selling to that whole cross

section of society, by
definition you have to

understand all the different
pressures that come on to that,

that come on to you at that
point.

Meaning lots of your volumes
sold to not necessarily your

target audience, not necessarily
sold in the right occasion, the

right segmentation or the right
kind of purist things that we

talk about.
And and as I've mentioned, a lot

of your volume probably sold on
on price promotion, especially

if you're in the UK and you're
going into you know the big

supermarkets here.
But one of the big sort of

discussions or or fights that I
would always have is that within

that set up, it's even more
important that you're talking as

it were to your kind of original
core target consumer and you're

giving them that brand and
product messaging that you did

at the start.
And then we used to draw all

these sort of clever graphics to
try and show that but and and I

always talk in analogies too
much as well.

But as a history geek, we had
this feudal system here during

the Middle Ages.
You had the king at the top and

your bishops and then and it
would kind of gradually go down

and societies like that.
And selling a brand to to, to

consumers is still like that,
right?

You start with your core people
at the top, and by definition,

as your brand spreads, you're
selling to other types of

people, right?
The key then is to hold on to

the concept of who your kind of
your kings and your bishops are

and who your target consumer is,
and to to be talking to them

even more engagingly in selling
your brand to them and telling

your brand narrative to those
people.

Meaning those target bars, the
best bartenders, all of those

kind of things.
You've got big work to do to

convince them that your brand,
albeit huge, is still great and

still well made and still has
all the credentials and

credibility that it had at the
start and then on to the point

that you were making beforehand.
I think what that means

internally as a team is that
huge empathy is required between

functions and between
geographies and all that kind of

stuff as well, right?
As you referenced, you know when

you sit in a global role, you
tend to sort of sit in your

lighthouse and be shining wisdom
on the the little people in the

markets.
But if that's all you're doing,

then that's not much use.
And so you have to be empathetic

to the challenges that people
are facing in their market and

understand the pressure on the
sales people going from bar to

bar.
At the same time, I would

strongly argue that you're kind
of your sales person in market X

needs to have some kind of
upward empathy back to what the

vision of the brand is all about
and what the what the point of

the brand is all about.
And those two things need to

meet sort of somewhere in the
middle.

At whatever stage of your brand
you're at, you can sort of lose

identity of your brand and you
end up with a slightly

schizophrenic brand and
situation going on or at least

not consistency from market to
market and from channel to

channel.
I agree, I agree.

And that's and you know when you
were talking like it made me

think back on on the I don't
know, I don't know if you

remember the days which in you
know the the, the last stage of

a premium brand was used to be
called expand and then it

changed into sustain because
like languaging is a thing now.

You know I read some books and
they talk about you know

languaging, the importance of
languaging, so creating new

words to describe new things
because otherwise or or

sometimes even old things now
because you need to make sense

of that and and even there like
within the organization if you

talk about expanding then you're
basically like kind of like

flooding the market and then it
being it means promos and

discounts and misbehaviors from
a brand perspective.

If you talk sustain is about how
do you sustain that growth

within those challengers that
are coming into the category

now.
And it all, it all goes back to

the KPIs because where I've seen
and where I see success is where

basically all these you know
from you know taking some

bishops, I love that analogy.
But within that or if you take

the kings ambitious within an
organization, it's all the

feudal system has got the same
KPIs and they've got the same

targets and you know it, it can
go back to the vision of the

brand because that's ultimately
what it is.

You know if those people are
incentivized into driving

distribution or into driving
rotation or they dry ire, they

incentivize on volume and
incentivize on value.

You know like there is there are
different ways of actually

ensuring from mindset or let's
let's call it mindset, let's

call it like a culture and and
and so on.

But ultimately is the same
thing.

It's like when people talk the
same thing within the

organization.
And I remember for example when

the old Miller brands UK which
is now Asahi UK, you know I

remember when I came there like
to learn how they were doing

things in London and in the UK.
And what I was impressed about

like back then was that the old
organization was speaking the

same language.
You know whether you spoil you

spoke to the key account guys in
the off trade people managing

wholesalers, marketing manager,
brand managers, trade marketing

managers, logistics people.
They were all thinking the same

way.
So it wasn't like I know those

are the brand guys or no you
know but trade marketing doesn't

get it and you know and off
trade is just doing promos.

You know it was really like all
together merging into a nice way

you know and this is the
ultimate thing.

So what would you say are you
know, you are also brand owner,

you're got your vermouth brand,
so you Ostara by the way, how do

you see what should have been
learning, teaching, experiencing

from big multinational
perspective now going and doing

your own thing?
How do you go about that and how

do you start with a brand in
your case?

Gosh.
Well, that's a really

interesting question.
One of the reasons I wanted to

do my own brand or * English
Hedger Moose available on the

website full time.
One of the reasons I wanted to

do that was actually for the
simplicity of being able to make

decisions for myself and
strangely enough listening to

what you're talking about about
SAB Miller UK or Asahi whatever

it's called these days.
It's it's harder in a big team

ecosystem like that to get
consistency of narrative of and

everyone pulling in the same
direction if that makes sense.

And and for me the most
successful organisations teams,

brands whatever you want to call
them are the ones where all

these people are talking to each
other and kind of and clearly in

this on the same page and that's
it's it's still baffles me the

number of times that that's not
happening where you know sales

are saying that the marketing
guys just coloring the the

pictures and the marketing guys
think the sales guys are thick

and like it still happens right.
And it breaks my heart a little

bit to see it still on on
LinkedIn because it's such a

silly way to think about it.
And so to come back to the my

own project, one of the reasons
I wanted to do it was just to

kind of have a little bit of a
binary sense of kind of if if I

can come up with a brand
narrative and A and A and a

recipe for a liquid and a
concept and a list and a that I

can just get on with doing it
right.

And you know, it's a one man
band thing.

So I don't have to answer to
anybody.

I don't have to discuss it with
anybody.

I don't have to sit in rooms and
go through stage gates of

innovation that take 24 months
and all of those kind of things.

And I, I sort of went from 1
extreme IEA big corporate

environment where you would go
through all those those

processes with innovation, for
example.

And you suffer from almost what
I would say, I'd call it sort of

decision paralysis, I suppose,
where these companies, sometimes

they don't do anything because
great ideas just get diluted and

diluted through various
functions of the business, I

suppose.
And so I wanted to just have a

go at doing that for myself.
Don't get me wrong, it's also

bloody hard.
And so without having kind of

the the ecosystem and the
support structures and the the

cash and the runway and all that
kind of stuff, it's difficult.

So yeah, for me personally, you
know somewhere in between those

two extremes is probably the
best way forward.

So you know the smaller teams
that I see now and this is

something that you and I have
talked about, you know smaller

teams where clarity on strategic
direction, clarity on brand

sales, commercial, KPIs, you
reference KPIs before and that

everyone understands the
ultimate goal tends to breed

teams that are all saying the
same thing and doing the same

thing albeit with their
different functions and tends to

you know there's a strong
correlation between those teams

I think and brands that are
performing well within their

categories, whatever that
category is.

I agree, I agree.
And what the challenge on that

is, is like from a founder
perspective that it's one of the

discussion that I think I was
having with with Paul Letko in

episode.
I can't remember the name of the

the number of the episode, but I
think it was like.

One of the early ones.
Right.

Well, yeah, I think it's like 30
where basically like I'm talking

about like how do you build
demand for your brands and how

does that evolve through time
now?

Because if you're a founder, you
know in the beginning you are

the 1 going and hits in the
streets, which with the bottle

in your backpack kind of thing.
And then it develops in a way

that then you're a guest on a
podcast.

So you're still building demand
for the brand, but you're not

actually doing the old thing you
used to do.

But you need to in my opinion
have done that in order to

understand what it takes.
Because what I what I struggle

with is when I when I see people
launching a brand and then

hiring A-Team right away.
So they are, they are the

founder, but they actually
almost like an investor rather

than a founder.
And then if you haven't got a

door on your face in a bar or if
you haven't had that

conversation like thanks but no
thanks kind of thing, then you

don't know what it means to to
actually do that.

So there is a journey to be able
to do that.

And then we discussed this many
times, you know, there is a

level of you know, OK the runway
that goes with it and the bottom

up way it's more like it,
there's no fix time.

I mean it's not that building
bottom up means it takes five

years or 10 years or 20 years.
It depends on your effort, on

your resources, on the people
you've got available, you people

you've managed to bring with you
on that journey.

And then you may go faster or
smaller depending on exogenous

conditions in the market as
well.

But it is the way forward is
just that you need to see you

know like how long, how long it
will take for you depending on

all those things that I listed
before.

Yeah, look, not that I want more
people to enter into the UK

drink space, because that's, you
know, competition I could do

without.
I think.

I think it's, it's a really
interesting exercise for anybody

who professes to be either a
consultant or a brand director

or whatever to have actually had
to have done it for themselves.

Because it's different, right?
In the years that we've known

each other, when I was banging
on about this act, slightly

academic exercise that we're
talking about of dealing with

opinion, leading influences and
building your brands carefully

and all that kind of stuff.
I it to a degree I have done it,

but in a corporate setting, one
of my big arguments and one of

my big, I suppose, itches that I
wanted to scratch was never

actually having done it.
Do you know what I mean?

So like I, you know, I started
as a salesman in fact selling

stellar going into 12 outlets a
day and you know, that's hard.

So I've had my my share of doors
shut in my face, to your point,

but not really for myself, not
in that kind of existential way

of like I have got to carry
these bottles around, I've got

to push post on the Instagram
post, which I pretty much shit

myself the first time I did
that, like for my own brand,

because it's different, right?
And it's so bizarre to go from a

world where, you know, you're
briefing multi $1,000,000

campaigns to fancy agencies and
all agency briefings and all

this kind of stuff in the
boardroom versus OK, I'm sitting

here with my phone and I've got
to actually write the caption

and check there's no typos in it
and check that the photos.

OK.
And I haven't got my finger in

the way of the camera or, you
know, any of those stupid

things.
And that's a great and amazing

exercise to go through because I
think to your point, what you

learn is, and it was interesting
listening to Paul's reference

episode that you referenced
before, how do you build demand

for something?
And is it probably a mistake

that I made?
But I don't, I don't know if

it's a mistake or not.
Actually, we can talk about it.

When I made my first batch of
Austara, there was no demand for

it because nobody had heard of
it.

So I started from zero in a
category that didn't exist.

English vermouth really, that I
felt on an academic level had

some potential and I felt I'd
made a really good product,

which I still think is a very
tasty product.

But the only demand that would
ever possibly exist for it would

be if I was able to generate
that demand either at the time

because it was during lockdown,
either on an online basis.

So I started selling via our
website that I made for myself

or by, you know, literally
cycling around and delivering

samples and delivering bottles
to friendly bartenders that I

knew if their bar was open.
So like you know that's all the

circumstantial stuff as you
spoke about.

And then what you have to
acknowledge is that that's

bloody hard.
That takes a really long time.

And if your cash strapped
bootstrap, whatever you want to

call it, you have to also be
patient with yourself.

And actually that's something
that I'm probably still working

on, just on a personal level, is
being patient with the project,

being patient with the fact that
it's not in every single bar in

the UK yet and it's not going to
be right.

So it's, you know, in terms of
KPIs, if you will, if you want

to call them that.
I I oddly find myself not living

to my own rules, I suppose,
because I haven't.

I haven't really forced myself
into KPIs because because some

of them, I'm not going to find
that useful right now, right.

My only KPI is try and get it in
the hands of the right

bartenders where I can try and
get people talking about it.

If someone wants to talk to me
about it, great.

If I can get more people tasting
it, I know that they like it and

just sort of keep doing that
really and hope that gets some

kind of traction.
And I need the help of Someone

Like You to kind of help me make
kind of formalize that and make

that better.
But I've in a way lived these

two extremes, one of leading a
big global brand in the gin

category and kind of that's it's
big, right.

And you're spending millions of
dollars and you're allocating

budget in loads of different
markets and you're able to order

brand ambassadors around and you
get to travel around and go to

all these amazing bars and what
not.

I personally got to a point
where I thought actually I've

got to be closer to reality than
this.

I've got to actually talk to
bartenders and not as the guy

who's got some big job title,
but who's, who's just Julian,

who's got a product to sell.
And I'd love to go through that

exercise.
That's kind of a personal

motivation, I suppose, for why I
wanted to do, to do my own

thing.
But at the same time, on a sort

of academic or hypothetical
basis, if you want to call it

that, I found myself really
wanting to stress test what you

and I talk about all the time
and see for myself whether I

felt that it worked and whether
it could be a thing.

And also, you know, as as I
consult people and as I work

with people and as and as you
and I talk to other brands,

etcetera, etcetera.
I want to have lived that.

I want to have, you know, stood
with a bartender and have him

taste my product and be super
nervous about whether he's going

to like it or not.
And then be delighted when he

does like it.
And and and just go through that

time and time and time again,
because that makes me more

credible, I think, when I start
to talk to people about things

like this.
And and that's very it's very

interesting I mean to to listen
to your topic and and it made it

made me think now that you know
because ultimately I don't have

my own brand yet what I'm
experiencing the the let's say

the closest thing to to having
my own brand is actually my my

own brand my my name you know
and the podcast for example.

And I see that very much, you
know, like and we we discussed

this as well, it's part part of
this chat is basically making

public our endless talks on over
the phone, usually on on Friday

mornings.
And often like the wise people,

they call it like you know you
have to you should be journaling

now and you know, like I'm
writing a journal and you know,

like writing things and that is
probably the one of the close

things to it, to a KPI kind of
thing.

Because sometimes I I, I have
this thing like this tool that

I'm using and I and I do the
hashtag quotes of the day and

and then I every once in a while
I go back to it and then I see

like a filter by hashtag.
And then I see all the things

that I wrote every single day.
And then I'm like OK this is

giving me the direction and and
then I go back to the yearly

objective that I set up for
myself.

And then I say oh actually you
know I I think I'm doing pretty

good on this one.
I'm doing really bad on this one

and and so on.
And going back to the to the

podcast, the thing that I was
saying is that you know it's it

takes time because I mean like
it's it's like yesterday Spotify

for podcasts releases released
the the yearly summary and I

launched in mid March and and it
was like well done, you've

published 1100 minutes of of
podcasts.

Wow.
And it made me think because for

me it's a weekly thing and it's
like well 1100 minutes.

And and you know, that is
obviously an effort from my

side, but it's also an effort
from the listener side.

And in a way my listeners are
are my drinkers, you know, you

know, like they are drinking the
podcast to an extent, you know.

So you need to convince people
to listen because I cannot call

my aunts and tell her, you know
please listen to the podcast,

you know, because it's very
technical.

I'm not talking about things
that are inviting for the

average person you know like you
must be from the industry and so

on.
But, and that's very similar to

how to be, how to build demand
for a for a drinks brands you

know going out there and so on
and it takes time and and and

then it's a matter of when you
manage to actually commit to it

and say OK with the podcast, I
want to show up every single

week no matter you know the
other day I was thinking like

should I skip Christmas week?
And I was like, no, because

there's people that will not
celebrate Christmas or we'll

have no family to be with.
I'll be listening to the

podcast.
Don't worry, I'll be listening

on yesterday I'll be I'll.
Be and and you know, ultimately

that's that's the thing because
it takes time.

You know, I'm out there every
single time, every networking

events.
Anytime I go and sit at the bar

and I have a person next to me,
I mention I have a podcast.

You know if I see that those
people are interested in drinks

and spirits and beers and you
know I mentioned that to them

and they may follow instantly or
they may follow me on Instagram

and then they go to the podcast
later on.

And this is the old, you know
things that is very similar to

being out there and meeting the
bars and so on.

The The trick with that is that
you need money to be able to do

that.
And to your point, like when you

were saying like being on
expenses, having two cocktails,

it's an expense, it's a
marketing expense.

I mean, people don't want to see
it like that because you're out

there like having nice drinks
and you enjoy yourself night.

I do enjoy myself, but it's also
I would like to be with my

daughter and with my wife some
nights in sitting on the sofa

watching a movie rather than
being in a bar.

But it's needed in order to
build the brand.

And this is what I feel many
founders don't get right because

they think that they can
outsource the unsexy stuff of

building a brand and and just
give it to all.

I'll hire a brand ambassador,
you know, I'll hire an agency.

I'll give it to a wholesaler to
sell.

You know, like, I don't have to
do it because I'm preparing the

liquid, I'm preparing the
packaging, I'm preparing the

cool stuff that is more like a
brainstorming kind of thing.

And then I don't need to go
outside when the storm is

hitting.
There's lots to unpack within

that.
It's it's it's interesting.

I've been getting more and more
involved in the in the sort of

private equity slash VC world
recently.

I suppose what you see often
within that is people, people

getting into our business let's
say or let's call it this

business maybe not quite with
the same motivations as what

you've just alluded to, right.
It's it's got kind of like a

money making exercise and that's
you know that's fine, it is what

it is.
But I think that as a personal

choice and what I prefer to see
is people wanting to get into

this business and this sector
because they have a genuine

passion for it and they want to
build something that's great.

And whether it's, you know, take
myself as an example, whether

they see an opportunity and they
want to make a liquid that's

great or they're particularly
passionate about gin or some

obscure mezcal from somewhere
other you, I think you've got to

love it and you've got to,
you've got to kind of feel that

you really want to be doing it.
And I think to your point on

building the podcast, you, you
know, you've got to personally,

and you have this, you've got to
have that kind of personal

tenacity and drive to want to do
it.

You know, when you're tired and
you're feeling a bit sick or

whatever, you're still going out
there and you're still talking

to people and you've got to have
that motivation.

And that's got to be a big
reason, you know why you want to

go out there and do it with my
Speaking for myself, there's no

greater feeling than sitting in
a bar that stocks your product,

your product that has decided to
pour that and to put it in the

cocktail or whatever.
And that's just, it's the best

feeling to sit there and have
achieved that.

And I'd argue that I think to
your, to your point, unless you

want to feel that feeling and
you're going to go and sit in

that bar and you're going to go
and enjoy it and enjoy the

journey, then like it's it's
less interesting just to kind of

try and make a load of money and
try and exit within three or

four years and make a million, a
few, you know a few £1,000,000,

right.
That's great if you manage to do

that but you've got to be in it
for the journey because the

likelihood is you won't get the
exit, you won't make hundreds of

millions of pounds because
you're not the rock or Kylie

Minogue or whatever, right.
And so you've got to enjoy that

process.
Otherwise what's the point?

And as a final thought I, I I
think that that thing that sort

of founder LED drive or the the
drive to build brands in a sort

of authentic and patient way.
I think that's just a

fundamental human truth.
So that happens to be we're

talking about a you know the
drinks category.

But I'm working with a clothing
company at the minute and the

concept is the same, right.
I found a LED clothing company

that wants to build love for
their products and build a

community and take their time to
do that and acknowledges that

they are not and don't want to
be Uniqlo or Gap or whatever.

But it's a philosophical and
love based approach to why they

want to do that.
And I think the more that we can

do that and the more that we can
produce an environment which

enables people like that to
flourish in whatever category.

And the more interesting our
alcohol category will be because

there's people out there with
brilliant ideas that want to you

know want to be able to make
interesting products.

And I think, I think we live
actually in very innovative

times for the alcohol sector
right now and in and indeed the

non alcohol sector as well
because people are made, they're

looking for interesting
flavours, they're looking to

jump on to different drinks
occasions and maybe hijack

people's rituals.
They're looking for interesting

non alcoholic, they're looking
at forgotten categories let's

say.
And the more that we can

encourage and enable individuals
or small teams to come out and

do that, the better.
But as you said does in the end

come back to having the budget
and the ability to do that.

So there's always that kind of
counter argument to that.

Final Absolutely.
And and I mean it it it, it

brings me back to what you were
saying before now because the

founder journey like the
bootstrapping kind of thing or

the funded kind of, you know,
there is always that balance not

the either or or and or
whatever, but but it's also

going back to what's your
objective because I hate that

word.
You know, like that.

You know, like when everybody's
like in in a meeting is like, so

what's your objective of this
meeting?

You know, like I hate that but
but ultimately that's the thing

we call it the goal, the
objective, the drive, the

passion, the whatever.
But is why are you doing it?

And you raise it really well.
I mean I had a shiver on my back

when you said it.
You know, it's like you have to

be there for the journey because
you know, the end may not be

there.
Imagine like I do this for my

daughter, you know, my daughter
when she's gonna be working.

She may be a ballet dancer and
she will say like my fair

drinks, like, you know, like
I've I've got nothing to do with

this company.
Or like it could be like that.

I want to sell it for a zillion
dollars which will never come

because no, nobody will ever buy
it.

So either I enjoy it now while
I'm building something for

myself 1st and then for the
others or I will be

disappointed, you know because
there will always be some you

know like disappointment at the
end of the of the journey.

So The thing is that it takes
time to build things.

I mean it's it's just like a
given and people are misled by

industry media, by people
telling stories that they don't

know about of people exiting
after one year, after two years,

after three years.
Those are just like strike of

luck.
You know, the ultimate thing is

that it takes time.
It may take 20 years as I

usually say and I and I stole
there from Paul again, but then

you know, it may take 10.
But The thing is that depending

what you're looking for, because
even being funded, it can be

that you basically got yourself
a job, then you know you're not

the founder anymore, because
then you need to report to the

investors, you need to report to
the people that gave you money.

So then you become the whatever
Managing Director, CEO,

President, whatever you want to
call it.

But you are not you as such
anymore.

Well, you become everything you
probably didn't want to be,

yeah?
And that's and that's the thing

that is like the and.
And again, like there's no right

or wrong.
There's no system like that.

Only bootstrappers are cool or
only managing directors of

funded brand are cool.
Or if you sell out, you are a

bad person because I thought you
wanted to do it for your own

thing and then in the end you
sold out.

You know it's not about that.
It's just about understanding

what it takes and what it will
bring you.

And the trick with that is that
our industry is a is a cool

industry.
That's the beauty and the curse

of it at the same time because
it drags people into the

business that are seeing only
the allure of the of that, you

know, rather than actually
seeing how hard it is to to get

there.
And by drags in people like from

investment banking, lawyers,
accountants, you know, like all

sort of people that are, you
know, it's cool to have a brand,

it's cool to have a gin brand,
it's cool to have a vermouth

brand, it's cool to have a
restaurant, a bar, a pizzeria or

whatever.
But it it takes time to build

those businesses because they
are businesses ultimately now.

And that is the tricky, the the
tricky one on convincing those

people that easy money are not,
are not a thing in this world.

No, I mean I I think I I
completely agree with you.

I think this this a little bit
of AUK centric viewpoint maybe

but you you you know you
mentioned gin.

There's so many gin brands in
the UK category here.

Far too many and usually there's
a kind of an interesting founder

story or you know there's
there's something in the I I

won't name them I'm I'm going to
try and hard try hard not to

make to name them.
But it's usually some guy who's

made a load of money somewhere
and who's run out of other

things to spend money on and
thinks it would be quite cool to

have his own gin brand.
So he can kind of take his pals

to a couple of bars and they can
all laugh about how he's got his

own gin, which is great and you
know good for them.

I think to flip it a little bit,
I always, I feel very sad

genuinely for founders who who
are not that guy, but who when

you ask them sort of what their
goal is, they start talking

about a, you know, a three-year
exit or a five year exit or, you

know, XX year exit.
Because the likelihood of that

happening, the likelihood of
someone coming along and going

here's £50 million or whatever
is so infinitesimally small that

although you read about it with
Step Smith or whatever, name a

brand, right, that's had a huge
exit to somewhere or you know,

it's it's, it's probably not
going to happen to you, right?

Probably not.
And so unless you're doing it

because you want to do it and
again to repeat myself and

because you want to live that
journey and then effectively see

where that takes you to.
And I can, I I know that you

won't like this part of it.
But I'm I'm a fan of setting a

vision which is to say, look I
want to have this business.

You know, sustainable and with
cash in the bank and with demand

and kind of they'd be tighter
than that.

But I I I don't want to see kind
of an end point to that vision.

In other words, I will get to
five years and I will sell.

I will exit this business
because it's not, it's probably

not going to happen or if it
does happen, it's probably not

going to happen in the terms
that you hope it will happen in.

And if it does happen, then what
like?

And if your main aim is to just
get out so you can then sit on

the beach for the subsequent 10
years, I promise you you'll be

bored after that anyway.
And so it's kind of like you've

got to do it because you enjoy
it and you want to do it.

And then if if that's the case,
then I think talking about these

kind of one one man band type
situations that we're talking

about, you're more likely to
follow the approach that you

always talk about and build from
the bottom up because you're

going to want to enjoy the fun
bit getting in the cool bars and

talking to the cool bartenders
and going to the cool trade

shows.
Than you are probably by

definition of wanting to go into
Tesco's and sell, you know, 50

pallets to 300 stores or
whatever because that's not

super fun.
Then you just becomes an

accounting exercise and to make
sure you're not getting rinsed

on your price and all that sort
of stuff.

And so I think you and I
probably have a natural sort of

direction towards these smaller
interesting founder LED spirits

or beer companies because
they're more likely to play that

the game that I've just alluded
to or they become massive very

quickly.
That's all for today.

Remember that is a two-part
episode, 39 and 40.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from the bottom up.