012 | The shelf-life mindset: what can spirits learn from beer to drive rotation | Part 1/2 of the Interview with Philip Duff, Founder of Old Duff Genever and Liquid Solutions (NYC, NY, USA)

I'm Chris my fill a drinks
industry advisor and found the

Roma Fair drinks.
Host of the most feared Rings

podcast this and the next
episode are a selection of the

chat.
We had with Philip during the

Philip does show some time ago
and I selected parts of it to be

able to distill the most
important aspects of that

conversation.
And what I thought that could be

more beneficial.
Official to you, as it's really

helping you how to build brands
from the bottom up.

So we spoke about very different
topics.

I'm not going to spoil it.
Here, we went a little bit on a

tangent on many instances, but I
think you will really enjoy this

episode.
So let's Dive In.

So Chris, I wanted to speak to
you.

We interact quite a lot online.
We haven't actually met in

person that is going to change
in course.

But could you tell our listeners
all 12 of them about what

brought you from Italy to all
around the world's to maffeo

drinks?
I'm Italian originally from Rome

but my roots are in the south of
Italy.

I will lie, no near Naples.
I've been living in Italy until

I was 25 and then I did my
thesis in Antwerp so I lived in

Antwerp for about six months.
You can imagine how I'm for

peace with a thriving bar scene
and Vibrant Community of experts

and then after that and move to
Finland where I work for a

design agency, then moved to
Stockholm Sweden when I work for

a branding agency.
See.

And then just buy out of a
coincidence.

I met someone on the plane and I
got a job in Prague.

So actually, I was working in
Pilsen, which is actually great

coincidence that you drink a
circle because I was actually

stationed at the brewery.
And I was working there for

about six and a half, seven
years for sabmiller.

And I started as an
international Marketing Manager

for pepperoni.
I launch that with the rest of

the team or all across Europe
and me.

Yeah.
So, there was also do by

Istanbul, Tel, Aviv in the
remit.

I worked a lot in the nordics
because of course, that's where

I had lived.
So I do other countries very

well and then I was the
transition with ABI by

sabmiller.
So number one, by number two of

the World of Beer, which was a
bit of a shaky Awakening for me.

And then I transitioning to
Asahi that both the European

business from sabmiller.
Danny, I left the business and I

moved to Copenhagen where I work
at the headquarter of Carlsberg

for for exactly one year and
there.

I was a general manager for
something called Urban

Development launching.
The cosmic poor premium

portfolio across the world in
the biggest cities in my REM, it

was us and the Americas.
So South America, Central,

America Mexico.
So since then, I haven't been

traveling that much, I've been
based in Prague and that's what

I decided to launch.
My own company was Mixed with

family decision.
I have a small daughter which is

roughly the same age as my
business and there was the final

driver for setting up my own
company and and leaving the

corporate world.
I thought I was International

suck, man, wipe rag because the
initial work was based in Pilsen

as I said, but it was requiring
a lot of traveling.

And of course, the airport is in
Prague.

So I decided to stay in Prague
and then I met my wife.

She's check and it's been Almost
13 years about drug that 11 pier

in Copenhagen when I was
commuting, every Monday to

Friday I was in Copenhagen and
back for the weekend.

So that's the counts as a double
year funnily enough.

I'll be living in New York for a
12 years as well.

Okay.
So because of my American wife

so you see that's how it is.
That's how it goes.

So a lot of people lump the
drinks industry in together

though, wine beer, spirits.
But I always feel that wine and

beer are very similar and very
different to spirits.

Well, what do you think of the
differences and similarities

between beer and Spirits?
I see it from a slightly

different angle because I see
beer and Spirits to be much more

similar than Wine.
I think wine is the one that is

like standing out a little bit,
but the biggest difference

between beer and Spirits, I
would say it's the shelf life,

the shelf life is a driver.
The mindset difference, I think

beer, it's a real fmcg.
So it's a fast moving consumer

goods.
It's about volume.

It's smaller margin per unit,
but bigger margin as a as a

whole and because you are having
a shelf life.

So I keg can last like nine
months, in shelf life at bottle

is 9 to 12 months depending on
the beer.

And once you open the keg, you
have to get rid of it within

three, four.
Days.

If you want to keep quality, of
course, you can keep it longer

within a week, but I wouldn't
recommend it, and I wouldn't

drink it.
So, I think that was the

biggest.
Let's say gifts coming for beer

from beer for me to move into
Spirits, which I'm dealing more

with now that my mindset is
about creating rotation before,

moving on, to the next bar.
So, I'm much more of a farmer

before being a hunter.
Because I believe that if you

hunt Bar, and then you need to,
you know, ensure the rotation

before you move on to the other
bar, otherwise, you basically

get a bottle Dusty on the Shelf,
which is great.

It's a great phrase, Farming
versus hunting.

And I honestly hadn't occurred
to me obviously fresh.

As you know, what else freshness
is very important for possibly?

The newest addition to most back
bars is actually these

non-alcoholic Spirits because
they don't have albinism.

You see, they don't have alcohol
to stabilize them.

Yes.
So they chain?

Yes.
And it can be quite a lot and I

think a lot of people we have
something like 12 non alcoholic

liquor stores in New York.
Now quite funny and very often.

People are having a party, it's
Christmas.

It's the summer.
It's a picnic and they're like,

oh, I need something for
alcoholic.

Uncle Philip, he can't drink
anymore, and they buy it and

they have it, but then they do.
See alcoholic, Uncle Philip, I

don't know why his name is Phil
for a year and then the product

has changed.
Exactly.

Exactly.
And that's the and that's the

downside of these things.
It's, a few Dawn.

I mean, there's also like other
categories that are like sitting

in between every day.
I don't know, where moose, as an

example like that, you need to
ensure that depleted or drink it

in quite a fast time compared to
a gym or any other more

alcoholic beverage in terms of
ABV, and it's always very

difficult to to instill that
mindset into Spirits sales

people because they're not in a
hurry.

They are basically saying, okay,
I made a deal, it's sitting at

Philips bar, it's there, it's
been there.

Like 45 years is the same bottle
Dusty.

He, he wipes it off a little
bit, but I've got a distribution

point, but you basically don't
have it because it's just like,

sitting in somebody's back bar,
just in a useless kind of

manner.
Sales staff are like sharks.

You can't get angry at a shark
for being a shark.

And if you Tell them get me. 20
distribution points.

They will they'll put one bottle
within 20 different bars and if

you say, hey does the sales
incentive and it ends on June

12, they will sell up until
midnight on June 11 and then

they will just turn to the next
thing.

It's just how it goes just and
that's the challenge with with.

Yeah experience versus beer.
Yeah, it is volumes.

It is pouring deals and tap
handles, but also inherently,

because there are people who
write columns about beer columns

about wine, there's wine clubs
and there's wine on TV, that's

true and we don't really have
that for spirit.

So consumers, don't know the
joke.

This was told to me as a joke.
I thought was very funny and

then one day I was in a bar, and
I actually heard this happening,

the joke was that people don't
know what they're drinking and

somebody would come in and do
that thing where they're looking

at the back bot, like a meerkat.
So it's either a consumer or a

sales rep looking for their
poor, a brand manager. and as

the bartender, you're there now,
So, the way it would go

something to say, oh, do you
have craters on the bartender's?

Say, no.
And just about to explain all

the other amazing vodkas that
they have.

And the customer says, I'll have
a McCallum.

And I laughed about this for
several years and then I get one

time.
I've heard it over my shoulder

in a New York Bar.
I literally heard that order

because those are brands.
Most people don't know anything

about spirits and those are
brands that you won't get

laughed at.
It's safe.

Yes, it's if you're buying a car
or Mercedes is always a good

choice.
You don't need to educate

yourself.
A Mercedes is Macau has lots of

other cars out there.
Some of them might be better or

better value or different or
cooler but a Mercedes is like a

safe choice.
And I feel that people gravitate

towards safe choices
necessarily, but it's a very

difficult business that if you
are spending all your days and

nights on the product, you are
very familiar with it.

But the average Joe Doesn't know
what a peated whisky is or

doesn't know what the botany
goal and how many boats and he

goes there are any gin and like
they don't know, they know Gene

and Sony, they may know Negroni,
they may know the difference

between scotch and an Irish
whiskey if the lucky or but

majority of the people as you
say don't know.

And even people that claim to be
I mean to scotch and I have a

lot of friends with like that.
They have a cabinet full of

scotch and then when you ask
them a single Malt or

differences with this within
these things.

Like they have no clue.
One of the interesting things

about what consumers know and
don't know about spirits and how

we as an industry communicated
to them people aren't stupid.

You give somebody a book about
whiskey they might like the book

that might read the book about
whiskey they like visiting

distilleries Distillery tourism
is way up.

Like you know people are
crowdfunding Brands and and all

that sort of Thing.
But I think a certain degree of

connoisseurship has increased
because of covid lockdowns,

because people were stuck at
home, and he started reading

books and watching YouTube and
listening to podcasts, and I

keep hearing for bartenders
people are coming in, they're

more well-informed on cocktails
and spirits and they were in

2020, you can imagine and I
notice it as well.

Especially like the classic
cocktails.

Like there's been a bit of a
rebirth of classic cocktails

during the lockdown and
strongest.

I think there was a trend of
like reassurance that people

wanted to go back to what they
knew like in in the uncertainty,

I want to look for something
certain and an old-fashioned or

a Negroni can play that role in
that sense.

The martini is going all well,
holy shit.

Yes, I'm gonna tell you now
there have not not been never in

history as many martinis poured
in New York City as now and

there have never been better
ones.

This whole town which is quite
small place.

Really.
If you think about it that's

gone Martini crazy.
An every bar has to have its own

Martini, which brings me to a
question, right?

So I believe it was my friend,
Robert Simonson who wrote

recently about this, he has a
sub stack.

He writes the New York Times he
writes for Vine pair.

Punch everything writes.
His own books, amazing guy, and

he basically saw every single
bar in New York is now doing its

own Martini.
Some kind of a Twist on a

martini, they had a bit of this
submitted that they pickle our

onions in the desert.
And he's this is where we went

wrong. 20 years ago, when
everything in a martini glass

was called a martini whether
blue or green or yellow or

chocolate or vanilla.
I said we've got to and this new

popularity for the martini,
we've got to keep the martini

front and center because it
takes a special kind of self

confidence and humility to say
this is a gorgeous Gin martini.

That's how we make them here.
Now this room not worried that

you're not going to get the
press or the fame or Fortune for

risks is pickled ramp Gibson or
something, you know, we're

making a really good classic
martini.

Yes.
And that's the thing that maybe

I don't think is so much the
case with Spirits so much the

case with wine or beer, which is
the product gets in the

consumers, mouth pretty much as
the person makes it.

If it all works out well, and
it's nice and It's fresh, and

it's good.
But increasingly Spirits are not

going straight into people's
mouths.

They're being mixed in cocktails
and that's where as a producer,

you don't have the same control
That's very true.

And I think there's two ways
when I'm working with Spirits

Brands.
Get some brands that are obvious

that if you take whiskeys, for
example, like that's the typical

one, the best ones are not made
for cocktails.

You can mix them with cocktail
but they are made for sipping

that made for drinking needs and
some other brands.

And some other categories are
more made for cocktails.

So some a farm, stereotyping
Gene is made for mixing mostly.

Has an 18 year old scotch is
not.

Of course, you can drink it, Jim
meat and you can have an

old-fashioned with an 18 year
old scotch, but roughly

speaking.
That's what they have in mind

when they Market it.
No.

So I think that's the first kind
of like polarization between two

Brands, so some of them are more
into the beer kind of

experiences, I'm pouring it into
a glass and that's it on this

Coach side.
And then the other Is more,

okay?
It's either like a gin and tonic

and then you can play with the
ritual with the garnish, with a

perfect serve, and so on.
As well as much as beer because

also beer like we've been
trained in thinking a beer is

beer and a glass is a glass.
But then there are some beers

that are treated differently
with the foam and with pilsner

urquell and gymnast are top of
Mind example, since you are

since you're having one, have
you ever been to the Czech

Embassy on the Upper East Side
of New York?

No I haven't.
It's actually used for events in

the Czech Embassy.
They've got a bar of course

they've got a bar or so.
And they serve pilsner urquell

with three different levels of
foam.

Yes, like it's perfect.
It is a literal perfect serve

like that.
There are pilsner urquell draft

bars in Manchester classes.
Bierkeller where I've been has

amazing they've got the tanks
the whole thing I'll Bush lost

was my that's all yeah that's
what it is and that place blew

my mind.
I think they're opening one in

London.
It's just big note here.

The pouring is part of the beer.
It's not just like a random

person pouring.
It is just it's a proper skill.

The bartender is just just does
that they don't.

Wait tables that just stay
behind the bar, the just wash

glasses that they're brought to
them and then they just pour the

beer.
That's what they do.

They don't move from behind the
bar, that's how it should be.

People have always done it, but
in the general sense, you can

make your cocktail, sorry, you
can make your spirits to You

mix.
That's what I do.

I designed old of genever to be
mixed in cocktails and it's

always a bit weird when I get
interviewed by the press.

Or like, how do you like to
drink?

Genevra been drinking straight,
but most people don't, Right in

the same way, most people don't
drink English in straight and

then, yes, again, things like
Mezcal.

Tequila that work.
Always.

Pretty much drunk straight being
really mixed now and from the

high-end cognacs are Maniacs.
Calvados.

Even single malts saying hey you
can mix us because you've now

got million case Scotch single
malt Brands like Glenlivet and

Glenfiddich which is the first
one and at the same time the

price of other Whiskey's
especially including American

bourbon has gone up so much That
Scotch single malt is a good

deal and that brings me to
another point.

I listened to some episode like
recently of your podcast and I

know you're a big history lover.
And one thing that we tend to

forget is that a lot of these
Spirits, they have history and

they even the category itself.
Like it always starts from the

normal local consumption
occasion, you mentioned, even

Mescal, I mean, it's Mexican
things, Mexican, food, Mexican,

Unrelated things and then you
end up in a skyscraper in New

York City.
But the original consumption

occasion is actually Mexico.
The same thing.

If you take Italian Tomatoes, or
bitters or you name, it all the

categories that we have, they
are meant for Digestive purposes

or aperitif purposes before a
meal or after meal, So we tend

to forget these things that
there is always like an original

occasion.
And then there is like, a new

wave of occasion that is made
for cocktails, and that's how

things develop.
So, it's always like, a bit of a

kind of, like a brand extension,
of consumption occasion where

everybody wants to get into the,
you know, where the money is.

No.
And if you take now, like, how

the sprit says, develop or gin
and tonic has developed All

Brands pretty much, they've got
a cocktail with Sonic.

I've got a cocktail with ginger
ale.

I've got a cocktail with
Prosecco and with soda and like

they all basically fighting in
the same space of this

consumption occasion which is
the pre dinner after work.

You name it as it is and some
Brands can be more credible than

others because they are they
have a proper story to tell but

then some other is like a just
like totally random just made of

a marketing department
invention.

I think you've just described
marketers doing the Classic

error, which is like Army
generals fighting the last war.

They're like this work before
cons, I was recently asked to

revamp a range of let's SE
Jin's.

It wasn't yet, right.
But let's say it was yet, of

course, I know they had a range
and it was good.

Some marketing confusion around
them like The Branding was about

this country, but it was
actually made in a different

country and there's a few things
that were a bit weird.

And I said to this, these people
who are really know their

friends, I said, okay, so what
does success look like to you?

Is it Awards as its sales?
Do you want to be in the fancy

bars to want to export a like
what is your idea of success?

And they said we'd like to be
the Tito's vodka of gin and I

said so good news, bad news.
Good news.

I can totally do this, no
problem.

And it won't cost you much, you
could just pay me out of the

increased sales.
And they were happy.

And then they said, what's the
bad news?

I said it's going to take 23
years, just like Tito's because

Tito's has been around for 23
years.

They didn't just show up five
years ago, know what you're

talking about.
I think it actually does apply

to Wine beer and Spirits
equally.

Which is like the girl next door
syndrome, you grow up.

There's a little girl, your age
next door.

You never really notice.
Sir, you both get to be 16 17.

And one day, one of your friend
says, hey, she's really hot and

you've never noticed it.
Because you're too used to it.

So the world I certainly think
is full of amazing spirits but

it's not full of people who know
how to sell them and move them

and rotate them like for
instance, yesterday or Saturday.

I did the podcast with detailed
graph and his Amaro and

imperative or are officially
launching on Wednesday here in

New York City's and they're
amazing.

They genuinely contribute
something to the category.

Right.
They're not going to put a

scratch on the Golden Goose of a
parole but somebody who would

buy a tag watch instead of a
Rolex?

Somebody who would buy Audi
instead of a Mercedes they might

try this it somebody who would
drink natural wine instead of

Yellowtail Chardonnay, but what
do you see?

Beer is very, can be very fast
moving and Spirits.

Tend not to be quite as Nimble
as agile.

Is there anything you think that
Spirits marketers could learn

from bear?
I would say focus on

understanding much better.
The links of the ecosystem.

I think that's one of the things
that is missing really

understanding starting from the
brewery or The Distillery and

then, you go down The value
chain to the bar to the Importer

distributor wholesalers bar,
owners bar, staff, bartenders

and so on and consumer know,
whenever I see it ran guidelines

or soak into marketing people in
the spirit world are very strict

in in there.
Approved, cocktails kind of

thing.
This is how you drink it.

This is how you should drink it.
This is how you have to teach

them to sell to serve it.
And there is a very disconnected

moments between the marketing
department and actually going

into the streets and getting a
slap on your face.

Because I've always said that
when I was a marketer, I said, I

want to create something in a
messaging.

On which I wouldn't be ashamed.
Mentioning it, I want to be the

sales guy that I'm sent to talk
to Phillip the bar owner and I'm

not ashamed to say what I've
been told in the office This Is

The Moment of Truth and this is
what I noticed.

That doesn't really happen in
the spirits world because there

is too much focus on.
Let's say you thinking too

highly of the products and then
on the other end it's being too

strict about that product and
then it ends up in being like

I'm a bartender and I don't care
much what you're telling me to

do.
I don't care about your brand,

guidelines.
I don't care about your perfect

serve.
If it doesn't make sense for me,

why should I Serve with with
this garnish, instead of these

other garnishing.
Why should i serve it only an

old-fashioned?
Why should i serve with only in

the groan?
He's just because you tell me.

So well with beer, it's much
more does much more focused on

the rotation because it's that
beer expires.

The guy's going to call me and
he said, I've got five kegs in

the settlers and they were all
expired.

What do you want to do?
Do you want to pick them up and

refund me and give me five fresh
ones.

Or I stopped buying from you
while in spirits.

It just I don't care.
I just want to focus on fairly

that is as strict as me serving
it only in the old-fashioned.

And I don't care if he serves
only one old-fashioned, every

two months because the bottle
doesn't expire anyway, and

that's a distribution point and
Philip has a gray bar.

That's really interesting.
There are a lot of people who

want a toehold in amazing bar X,
amazing bar wide and they want

to be able to say oh we are in
this place and that place.

But I said earlier that people
don't know about spirits course,

that also applies to Brand
managers and brand directors and

marketing directors.
Right.

Because they tend to be hired
right out of college.

Maybe they've got mbas.
And what's different about

spirits to beer or wine?
Or toothpaste or tomato soup?

Is we all use?
Shampoo and tomato, soup and

toothpaste.
And we've got quite idea about

beer, white.
An idea about why no idea bad

spirits and no one's teaching
you either.

So if you are the new brand
manager, and you've got a right

brand guidelines for your gin,
or your whiskey or Rum, or your

tequila, you'll say all right.
Everyone's drinking martinis.

So let's suggest a tequila
Martini, which is a stupid idea.

You don't notice you, but
Because you don't go to bars.

Yeah.
And by the time you get to be

senior, you have two point, two
children, a Volvo and a house,

two hours outside the city.
That's very true.

So you're definitely not going
to bars.

That's very true.
That's a very good.

That's a very good point.
That's a very good point.

I see two challenges on that
front.

The first one is that Spirits as
being fmcg recently by the

corporation's, it used to be
bars.

Mainly And now it has become
supermarkets.

It has begun.
The shift has been from entree

to of trait.
So, what that means is that the

Philip or Chris, the bar guys
are not necessarily skilled for

Supermarket key, account
management, category management,

kind of conversation.
So what do I do as a Big Brand?

I hire people from Procter &
Gamble, dairy products

Pharmaceuticals old Other
companies that are toothpaste,

you mentioned washing powder
stuff, that is actually rotating

and really fmcg so that drags a
lot of new people into the

business into the spirits
business and which is not like

the wrong people is just like
their rightful, their job, but

they're wrong for the on trade
because they may either not go

out or have never been out
there.

Not bar people, they order a
cocktail every three months.

Sorry.
They go out and it's not their

fault, but don't get it.
I went to Cape Canaveral where

they launch space rockets and I
walked around.

I have no idea how they built
size Rockets.

I took a few photos these people
that go into a bar and bars and

the problem with bars and
restaurants, Hospitality

generally is the very best
people who usually are Italian,

by the way.
Make it look easy?

That's the job.
That's true, right?

Nobody ever says, you know what,
when I retire me and the wife

were going to start a coal mine
and just run it for fun but So

many people say that we're going
to have a little bed and

breakfasts.
We're gonna have a little hobo.

Gonna have a little bar.
Looks like so much fun.

I like you have no fucking idea,
so that's the fault of

hospitality professionals.
Who make it look easy.

And it sucks, it the world of
the entree, the world of spirit.

It's not that complicated, it
isn't rocket science, but it

does require a bit of extra
learning knowing how bars make

their money and where or nosh
How they operate.

I've taught a lot of courses
where I would train sales reps

to go into bars and assess the
bar because outside the u.s.a.,

this might be interesting to
any, of my America listeners a

liquor company, it literally
just write a check as okay?

We want to be the house, vodka
in the rail to cocktails on the

menu every menu.
For the next year, here's your

target.
If you have to Target get extra

bonus just like in supermarkets
when you walk in and combo.

Soup at eye level, they're
paying to be there.

So a sales rep or a sales
director, but be in charge quite

a large listing fee budget.
And you go into a new bar, you

don't uh, never bar owner,
sounds impressive, right?

They all do.
I used to be one?

You're in the business?
He's all we're going to do this.

We're going to do that.
How do you know if they're going

to do that?
Like, I used to try them on

something as basic as, okay.
You look at the back bar and all

the bottles have, that will pour
spouts on them.

Are they all pointing in
different directions or do they

all point in the same direction?
Did the bartender's have actual

cocktail recipes?
Because sometimes they don't.

Do they have a bar manual?
Yes.

What's it?
Like when it's busy?

Because if a bar is disciplined
and organized, they're probably

going to fulfill their end of
the bargain.

But if not, they might just be
taking the money and running and

again that comes down to a
general lack of well, Spirits

knowledge, for sure and
definitely knowledge about how,

but how bars operates?
It's true.

That's very true.
If you get your marketing

degree, you work for you to
lever or Procter & Gamble and

shampoo division.
Everyone uses shampoo, even me.

But I do you buy shampoo from a
shop or maybe you buy it online.

That's easy.
But bars are a little different

and that's true.
I've been working in export for

all my career, so I was always
selling the small brand in that

country.
It was a big brand like

pepperoni or pill Circle but
when nobody knows them not in

their market.
So it's always a challenge.

And the interesting thing was
that like whenever I was taken

out for a bar Visa, like a
barter or trade visas as we call

them, or when I was taking
people out.

You wouldn't imagine how many
senior people do not get it.

Like they don't even know how to
behave in a bar.

They think that the owners of
the bar there walk in, they

start taking the bottle.
They start touching stuff

around, they start taking
pictures.

They start taking pictures like
it while you were Cape Canaveral

and it's incredible.
Because in his City's guy is a

super senior guy.
Or girls.

And that's what it's
astonishing.

Because it's do I really need to
make a point outside of the

door.
Like guys, please behave follow

me, don't make a mess.
Don't ask stupid questions and

so on.
But that's how it happens.

Because as we said before like
either they are not bar people

or they don't get it or they
forgot because they used to go

out 30 years ago.
And the bar scene 30 years ago

was slightly different, Than
today.

And this is the interesting
thing about the development of

the on trade business and why
even though in many markets is

actually a fraction of the off
trade sales.

Oh yeah.
Still retains the, the most

important aspects of launching
and scaling an alcoholic

beverage.
Yeah.

Again for my listeners with the
exception of Asia everywhere

around the world.
The off-premise liquor stores is

usually, 80% of spirit sales,
like in Ireland, where I'm from,

it's 88 now, believe it or not,
that's weird.

You would think people drank
more in pubs in Ireland, but I

think they just buy warts from
liquor stores.

Yeah.
So therefore on a logical basis.

You concentrate a liquor stores
but that's not actually how it

works.
The on trade, is your shop

window.
It's how you get press.

It's how consumers hear about
you.

It's very powerful.
And in, even a medium-sized

country, say the UK, even if
it's only 10 or 15% of sales,

that's quite a lot and you can
win there.

So I'll ask you question, Chris.
Imagine you're a little liquor

brand, specifically liquor brand
and your focus.

The on trade and you're focused
on cocktail and you've basically

got no money or almost no money,
everything comes from Saints,

whatever you have.
What are the two or three

things, you think a little brand
like that should be doing.

First of all is translate that
brand into a commercial

proposition.
So really be crystal clear in in

understanding what you are
explaining it through

Distributors, salespeople.
Bartenders, what do you want

them to know about your brand?
And it's not about how you fell

in love with the recipe of your
great-grandfather.

It's really, who is this for?
How do you drink?

It was the best occasion to
drink it and understand which

type of bars.
Restaurant, you want to sell to

just make it three for typology
and then pick a city which in

theory should be your own City,
because that's where you should

win first and map those Outlets
out.

So it could be like a modern
Italian restaurant, whatever the

sushi restaurants and cocktail
bars focusing on organic

ingredients, whatever, I'm just
making up, take your 50 kind of

bars and then understand map
them out and get a system in

place to go and hunt them
present your brand and really

focus on those first.
But as I always like to say,

it's like a scene 1 bar is
better than one bottle in six,

buses six bottles.
It's still one case is still six

bottles by.
You want to ensure the rotation

before moving on, to the next
one because you want to ensure

that if I manage to get my brand
into Philips bar, then people

know that there is my brand
because it's not like on the

third row on the back bar, but
Phillip is making cocktails out

of it.
Or he is recommending it as an

aperitif or as a digestive or
whatever.

So people actually are using the
products and then I move on to

the next one through a system
and then once that she win in a

city, then you move to the next
city that's all for today.

So thank you for joining me on
the map are drinks podcast.

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insights in this episode's.

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