012 | The shelf-life mindset: what can spirits learn from beer to drive rotation | Part 1/2 of the Interview with Philip Duff, Founder of Old Duff Genever and Liquid Solutions (NYC, NY, USA)

I'm Chris Maffeiro, a drinks industry adviser and founder of Maffeiro Drinks, host of the Maffeiro Drinks podcast. This and the next episode are a selection of the chat we had with Philip during the Philip Duff show some time ago. And I selected parts of it to be able to distill the most important aspects of that conversation and what I thought that could be more beneficial to you as it's really helping you how to build brands from the bottom up. So we spoke about very different topics. I'm not going to spoil it here.

We went a little bit on a tangent on many instances, but I think you will really enjoy this episode. So let's dive in.

So, Chris, I wanted to speak to you. We interact quite a lot online. We haven't actually met in person. That is gonna change, of course. But could you tell our listeners, all 12 of them, about what brought you from Italy to all around the world to Maffeo drinks?

I'm Italian originally from Rome, but my roots are in the South Of Italy, Avellino near Naples. I've been living in Italy until I was 25. And then I did my thesis in Antwerp. So I lived in Antwerp for about six months. You can imagine how Antwerp is with a thriving Barcene and vibrant community of expats.

And then after that, I moved to Finland where I worked for a design agency. Then moved to Stockholm, Sweden when I worked for a branding agency. And then just by out of a coincidence, met someone on a plane and I got a job in Prague. So actually I was working in Pilsen, which is actually great coincidence that you drink in Pilsen Rooker because I was actually stationed at the brewery. And I was working there for about six

and a

half, seven years for SAB Miller. And I started as an international marketing manager for Peroni. I launched that with the rest of the team all across Europe and, EMEA. So there was also Dubai, Istanbul, Tel Aviv in the remit. I worked a lot in the Nordics because of course that's where I had lived.

So I know the country is very well. And then there was the transition with ABI buying S. A. B. Miller.

So number one buying number two of the world of beer, which was a bit of a shaky awakening for me. And then I transitioned into Asahi that bought the European business from S. A. B. Miller.

Then I left the business and I moved to Copenhagen where I work at the headquarter of Carlsberg for, for exactly one year. And there I was a general manager for something called urban development, launching the Carlsberg premium portfolio across the world in the biggest cities. And my remit was The US and The Americas. So South America, Central America, Mexico. So since then I haven't been traveling that much.

I've been based in Prague and that's where I decided to launch my own company was mixed with family decision. I have a small daughter, which is roughly the same age as my business. And that was the final driver for setting up my own company and and leaving the corporate world.

I thought I was international. Fuck, man. Why Prague? Because the initial work

was based in Pilsen, as I said, but it was requiring a lot of traveling and of course the airport is in Prague. So I decided to stay in Prague and then I met my wife. She's Czech and it's been almost thirteen years I've been living

in your drug.

That one peer in Copenhagen when I was commuting every Monday to Friday, I was in Copenhagen and back for the weekend. So that's, that counts as a double year.

Funnily enough, I've been living in New York for twelve years as well. Okay. Also because of my American wife. So.

You see, that's that's how it is. That's how it goes.

So a lot of people lump the drinks industry in together, the wine, beer, spirits, But I always feel that wine and beer are very similar and very different to spirits. Well, what do you think are the differences and similarities between beer and spirits?

I I see it from a slightly different angle because I see beer and spirits to be much more similar than wine. I think wine is the one that is like standing out a little bit. But the biggest difference between beer and spirits, I would say it's the shelf life. The shelf life is a driver of a mindset difference. Think beer it's a real FMCG, so it's a fast moving consumer goods.

It's about volume. It's smaller margin per unit, but bigger margin as a a whole. And because you are having a shelf life, a keg can last like nine months in shelf life. A bottle is nine to twelve months, depending on the beer. And once you open the keg, you have to get rid of it within three, four days if you want to keep quality.

Of course, you can keep it longer within a week, but I wouldn't recommend it and I wouldn't drink it. So I think that was the biggest, let's say, gift coming from beer for me to move into spirits, which I'm dealing more with now, that my mindset is about creating rotation before moving on to the next bar. So I'm much more of a farmer before being a hunter, because I believe that if you hunt one bar and then you need to, you know, ensure the rotation before you move on to the other bar, otherwise you basically get a bottle dusting on the shelf, which is great.

It's a great phrase, farming versus hunting. And it honestly hadn't occurred to me. Obviously, freshness. Do you know what else freshness is very important for? Possibly the newest addition to most backbars is actually these nonalcoholic spirits.

Yes. Because they don't have obviously, they don't have alcohol to stabilize them. Yes. So they do chain.

Yes.

And, and it can be quite a lot. And I think a lot of people, we have something like 12 non alcoholic liquor stores in New York now. Quite funny. And very often people are having a party. It's Christmas.

It's the summer. It's a picnic. And they're like, oh, I need something for alcoholic uncle Philip. He can't drink anymore. And they buy it and they have it, but then they don't see alcoholic uncle Philip.

I don't know why his name is Philip for a year. And then the product has changed.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's the, and that's the downside of these things. It's if you don't, I mean, there's also like other categories that are like sitting in between, if you take, don't know, vermouth as a, as an example, like that you need to ensure that depleted or drink it in quite a fast time compared to a gin or any other more alcoholic beverage in terms of ABV. And it's always very difficult to instill that mindset into spirit salespeople because they're not in a hurry.

They are basically saying, okay, I made a deal. It's sitting at Philips bar. It's there. It's been there like for five years. It's the same bottle, dusty.

He wipes it off a little bit, but I've got a distribution point. But you basically don't have it because it's just like sitting in somebody's back bar just in a useless kind of manner.

Sales staff are like sharks. You can't get angry at a shark for being a shark. And if you tell them, get me 20 distribution points, they will. They'll put one bottle in 20 different bars. And if you say, hey, there's a sales incentive, and it ends on June 12, they will sell up until midnight on June 11.

And then they will just turn to the next thing. It's just how it goes.

Yes. And that's the challenge with with, yeah, spirits versus beer.

Yeah. It is volumes. It is boring deals and tap handles, but also inherently because there are people who write columns about beer, columns about wine, there's wine clubs, and there's wine on TV. That's true. And we don't really have that for spirits, so consumers don't know.

The joke that this was told to me as a joke. I thought it was very funny. And then one day I was in a bar and I actually heard this happening. The joke was that people don't know what they're drinking and somebody would come in and do that thing where they're looking at the back bottle like a meerkat. So it's either a consumer or a sales rep looking for their or a brand manager.

And as the bartender, you're there to help. So the way it would go, someone would say, oh, do you have Grey Goose? And the bartender would say no. I'm just about to explain all the other amazing vodkas that they have, and the customer says, I'll have a Macallan. And I laughed about this for several years, and then I one time, I heard it over my shoulder in a New York bar.

I literally heard that order because those are brands. Most people don't know anything about spirits, and those are brands that you won't get laughed at. It's safe. Yes. It's if you're buying a car, a Mercedes is always a good choice.

You don't need to educate yourself. A Mercedes is Macao. There's lots of other cars out there. Some of them might be better or better value or different or cooler, but a Mercedes is like a safe choice. And I feel that people gravitate towards safe choices in spirits.

It's a very difficult business that if you are spending all your days and nights on the product, you are very familiar with it. But the average Joe doesn't know what a peated whiskey is or doesn't know what a botanical and how many botanicals there are in the gin and like they don't know. They know gin and tonic. They may know Negroni. They may know the difference between Scotch and an Irish whiskey if they're lucky or but majority of the people, as you say, don't know.

And even people that claim to be oh, I'm into Scotch and I have a lot of friends who are like that. They have a cabinet full of Scotch. And then when you ask them a single malt or differences with this within these things, like, they have no clue.

One of the interesting things about what consumers know and don't know about spirits and how we, an industry, communicate it to them, people aren't stupid. You give somebody a book about whiskey. They might like the book. They might read the book about whiskey. They like visiting distilleries.

Distillery tourism is way up. Like, you know, people are crowdfunding brands and and all that sort of thing. But I think a certain degree of connoisseurship has increased because of COVID lockdowns because people were stuck at home and they started reading books and watching YouTube and listening to podcasts. And I keep hearing from bartenders, people are coming in. They're more well informed on cocktails and spirits than they were in 2020.

I can imagine. And I noticed it as well. And especially like the the classic cocktails, like there there's been a bit of a rebirth of classic cocktails during the lockdown and and and so on. There's I think there was a trend of like reassurance, like people wanted to go back to what they knew. Like, in a in the uncertainty, I want to look for something certain, and an old fashioned or an agroni can play that role in that sense.

The martini is going off. Well. Holy shit. I'm gonna tell you now, there have not been, never in history, as many martinis hored in New York City as now. And there have never been better ones.

This whole town, which is quite a small place really, if you think about it, has gone martini crazy. And every bar has to have its own martini, which brings me to a question. Right? So I believe it was my friend, Robert Simonson, who wrote recently about this. He has a sub stack.

He writes for The New York Times. He writes for Vine Pear, Punch, everything. Writes his own books. Amazing guy. And he basically saw every single bar in New York is now doing its own martini, some kind of a twist on a martini.

They add a bit of this, a bit of that. They pickled our onions. He's this is where we went wrong twenty years ago when everything in a martini glass was called a martini, whether it was blue or green or yellow or chocolate or vanilla. And he said, we've gotta, in this new popularity for the martini, we've got to keep the martini front and center because it takes a special kind of self confidence and humility to say, this is a gorgeous gin martini. That's how we make them here.

Yep. That's true. Not worry that you're not gonna get the press or the fame or fortune for Marissa's pickled ramp Gibson or something. No. We're making a really good classic martini.

Yes. And that's the thing that maybe I don't think is so much the case with spirits, so much the case with wine or beer, which is the product gets in the consumer's mouth pretty much as the person makes it, if it all works out well it's nice and it's fresh and it's good. But increasingly spirits are not going straight into people's mouths. They're being mixed in cocktails. And that's where as a producer, don't have the same control.

That's very true. And I think there's two ways when I'm working with spirits brands. There's some brands that are obviously, if you take whiskies, for example, like that's the typical one, the best ones are not made for cocktails. You can mix them with cocktail, but they are made for sipping. They're made for drinking in neat.

And some other brands and some other categories are more made for cocktails. So some, if I'm stereotyping, gin is made for mixing mostly. An 18 year old Scotch is not. Of course, you can drink a gin meat and you can have an old fashioned with an 18 year old Scotch, but roughly speaking, that's what they have in mind when they market it. No?

So I think that's the first kind of like polarization between two brands. So some of them are more into the beer kind of experiences. I'm pouring it into a glass and that's it on the scotch side. And then the other one is more okay. It's either like a gin and sonic, then you can play with the ritual, with the garnish, with the perfect serve and so on.

As what as much as beer, because also beer, we have been trained in thinking a beer is a beer and a glass is a glass. But then there are some beers that are treated differently with foam and with pilsner ukulele and Guinness are the top of mind examples since you're since you're having one now.

Have you ever been to the Czech embassy on the Upper East Side Of New York? No. I haven't. It's actually used for events. In the Czech embassy, they've got a bar.

Of course. They've got a bar.

Of course.

And they serve Pilsner Urkel with three different levels of pho. Yes. Like, it's perfect. It is a literal perfect serve. Like things that do, there are Pilsner Urkel draft bars in Manchester.

Claus's Beer Keller, where I've been, is amazing. They've got the tanks, the whole thing.

Yeah. Alberschloss was my thing.

That's what it is. And that place blew my mind. I think they're opening one in London.

It's just big note here. The pouring is part of the beer. It's not just like a random person pouring it. It's just, it's a proper skill. The bartender is just, just does that.

They don't wait tables. They just stay behind the bar. They just wash glasses that they're brought to them. And then they just pour the beer. That's what they do.

They don't move from behind the bar.

That's how it should be. People have always done it. But in the general sense, you can make your cocktail sorry. You can make your spirits to be mixed. That's what I do.

I designed Olde of Geneva to be mixed in cocktails. And it's always a bit weird when I get interviewed by the press and they're like, how do you like to drink Geneva? I drink it straight, but most people don't. Right? In the same way most people don't drink English gin straight.

And then yet again, things like mezcal tequila that were always pretty much drunk straight being really mixed now. And from the high end cognacs, armagnacs, calvados, even single malts saying, hey, you can mix us because you've now got million case scotch single malt brands like Glenlivet and Glenfiddick, which is the first one. And at the same time, the price of other whiskeys, especially including American bourbon, has gone up so much that Scotch single malt is a good deal.

And that brings me to another point. I listened to some episode like recently of your podcast and I know you're a big history lover.

I

am. And one thing that we tend to forget is that a lot of these spirits, they have history and they even the category itself, like it always starts from a normal local consumption occasion. Mentioned I tequila mean, it's Mexican things, Mexican food, Mexican related things. And then you end up in a skyscraper in New York City. But the original consumption occasion is actually Mexico.

The same thing if you take Italian amaros or bitters or you name it, all the categories that we have. They are meant for digestive purposes or aperitif purposes before a meal or after a meal. So we tend to forget these things that there is always like an original occasion and then there is like a new wave of occasion that is made for cocktails. And that's how things develop. So it's always like a bit of a kind of like a brand extension of consumption occasion where everybody wants to get into the, you know, where the money is, know, and if you take now, how the spritz has developed or gin and tonic has developed, all brands pretty much, they've got a cocktail with tonic.

They've got a cocktail with ginger ale. They've got a cocktail with Prosecco and with soda and like they all basically fighting in the same space of this consumption occasion, which is the pre dinner after work, you name it as it is. And some brands can be more credible than others because they are, they have a proper story to tell. But then some others, like, just, like, totally random, just made of a marketing department invention.

I think you've just described marketers doing the classic error, which is like army generals fighting the last war. They're like, this worked before. And I was recently asked to revamp a range of, let's say, gins. It wasn't gin. Right?

But let's say it was gin.

Of course.

And it they had a range. And it was there was some marketing confusion around them. Like, the branding was about this country, but it was actually made in a different country. And there was a few things that were a bit weird. And I said to this, these people who I really know, they're friends.

I said, okay, so what does success look like to you? Is it awards? Is it sales? Do you wanna be in the fancy bars? Do you wanna export?

Like, what is your idea of success? And they said, we'd like to be the Tito's vodka of gin. And I said, so good news, bad news. Good news. I could totally do this.

No problem. And it won't cost you much. You could just pay me out of the increased sales. And they were happy. And then they said, what's the bad news?

I said, it's going to take twenty three years, just like Tito's because Tito's has been around for twenty three years. They didn't just show up five years ago. No. And what you're talking about, I think it actually does apply to wine, beer, and spirits equally, which is like the girl next door syndrome. You grow up.

There's a little girl your age next door. You never really notice her. You both get to be 16, 17. And one day, one of your friends says, hey, she's really hot. And you've never noticed it because you're too used to it.

So the world, I certainly think, is full of amazing spirits, but it's not full of people who know how to sell them and move them and rotate them. Like, for instance, yesterday or Saturday, I did the podcast with Dale DeGroff, and his Amaro and Aperitivo are officially launching on Wednesday here in New York City, and they're amazing. They genuinely contribute something to the category. Right? They're not gonna put a scratch on the golden goose of Aperol, somebody who would buy a Tag watch instead of a Rolex, somebody who would buy Audi instead of a Mercedes, they might try Yes.

Somebody who would drink natural wine instead of yellowtail chardonnay. But what do you see? Beer is very can be very fast moving, and spirits tend not to be quite as nimble, as agile. Is there anything you think that spirits marketers could learn from beer?

I would say focus on understanding much better the links of the ecosystem. I think that's one of the things that is missing. Really understanding starting from the brewery or the distillery, and then you go down the value chain to the bar, to the importer, distributor wholesalers, bar owners, bar staff, bartenders, and so on and consumer. I see brand guidelines or talking to marketing people in the spirits world, they are very strict in in their approved cocktails kind of thing. This is how you drink it.

This is how you should drink it. This is how you have to teach them to sell to serve it. And there is a very disconnected moment between the marketing department and actually going into the streets and getting a slap on your face. Because I've always said that when I was a marketer, I said, I want to create something and a messaging on which I wouldn't be ashamed to mention it. I want to be the sales guy that I'm sent to talk to Philippe, the bar owner, and I'm not ashamed to say what I've been told in the office.

This is the moment of truth. And this is what I noticed that doesn't really happen in the spirits world because there is too much focus on, let's say, thinking too highly of a product. And then on the other end, it's being too strict about that product. And then it ends up in being like, I'm a bartender and I don't care much what you're telling me to do. I don't care about your brand guidelines.

I don't care about your perfect serve. If it doesn't make sense for me, why should I serve it with this garnish instead of this other garnish? And why should I serve it only in old fashioned? Why should I serve it only in Negronis? Just because you tell me so.

While with beer, it's much more, there's much more focus on the rotation because if that beer expires, the guy is gonna call me and he says, I've got five kegs in the cellars and they're all expired. What do you wanna do? Do you want to pick them up and refund me and give me five fresh ones or I stop buying from you? While in spirits, it's just I don't care. I just want to focus on Philippe that is as strict as me serving it only in the old fashioned.

And I don't care if he serves only one old fashioned every two months because the bottle doesn't expire anyway. And that's a distribution point. And Philip has a great bar.

That's really interesting. There are a lot of people who want a toehold in amazing bar X, amazing bar Y, and they wanna be able to say, oh, we are in this place and that place. But I said earlier that people don't know about spirits. Of course, that also applies to brand managers and brand directors and marketing directors. Because they tend to be hired right out of college.

Maybe they've got MBAs. And what's different about spirits to beer or wine or toothpaste or tomato soup is we all use shampoo and tomato soup and toothpaste. And we've got quite an idea about beer, quite an idea about wine, no idea about spirits, and no one's teaching you either.

So if

if you are the new brand manager and you've got to write brand guidelines for your gin or your whiskey or your rum or your tequila, you'll say, alright. Everyone's drinking martini, so let's suggest a tequila martini, which is a stupid idea. But you don't know it's stupid.

Because you don't go to bars.

Yeah. And by the time you get to be senior, you have 2.2 children, a Volvo, and a house two hours outside the city.

That's very true.

So you're definitely not going to bars.

That's very true. That's a very good, that's a very good point. That's a very good point. I see two challenges on that front. The first one is that spirits has been FMCG recently by big corporations.

It used to be bars mainly, and now it has become supermarkets. It has begun. The shift has been from on trade to off trade. So what that means is that the Philip or Chris, the bar guys are not necessarily skilled for supermarket, key account management, category management kind of conversation. So what do I do as a big brand?

I hire people from Procter and Gamble, dairy products, pharmaceuticals, all other companies that are toothpaste, mentioned washing powder, stuff that is actually rotating and really FMCG. So that drags a lot of new people into the business, into the spirits business and which is not like the wrong people. It's just like they're right for their job, but they're wrong for the on trade because they may either not go out or they've never been out. They're not bar people. They order a cocktail every three months to our

They go out, and it's not their fault, but they don't get it. I went to Cape Canaveral where they launch space rockets, and I walked around. I have no idea how they built space I took a few photos. These people, go into a bar and bars. The problem with bars and restaurants, hospitality generally is the very best people, who usually are Italian, by the way, make it look easy.

That's the job.

That's true.

Right? Nobody ever says, you know what? When I retire, me and the wife, we're going to start a coal mine and just run it for fun. So many people say that we're gonna have a little bed and breakfast. We're gonna have a little pub.

We're gonna have a little bar. It looks like so much fun. I'm like, you have no fucking idea. So that's the fault of hospitality professionals who make it look easy. And it's the world of the entree, the world of spirits.

It's not that complicated. It isn't rocket science, but it does require a bit of extra learning, knowing how bars make their money and where or not, and how they operate. I've taught a lot of courses where I would train sales reps to go into bars and assess the bar. Mhmm. Because outside The USA, this might be interesting to any of my American listeners, a liquor company can literally just write a check as, okay.

We wanna be the house vodka in the rail, two cocktails on the menu, every menu for the next year. Here's your target. If you hit the target, get extra bonus. Just like in supermarkets, when you walk in in Campbell's soup at eye level, they're paying to be there. So a sales rep or a sales director could be in charge of quite a large listing fee budget.

And you go into a new bar, you don't and every bar owner sounds impressive. Right? They all do. I used to be one. You're in the business.

You say, oh, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do that. How do you know if they're going to do that? Like, I used to train them on something as basic as, okay. You look at the back bar and all the bottles have little pour spouts on them.

Are they all pointing in different directions, or do they all point in the same direction? Do the bartenders have actual cocktail recipes? Because sometimes they don't. Do they have a bar manual? Yes.

What's it like when it's busy? Because if a bar is disciplined and organized, they're probably going to fulfill their end of the bargain. But if not, they might just be taking the money and running. And again, that comes down to a general lack of, well, spirits knowledge for sure. And definitely knowledge about how about how bars operate.

That's true. That's very true.

If you get your marketing degree, you work for Unilever or Procter and Gamble in the shampoo division. Everyone uses shampoo, even me. But and you buy shampoo from a shop or maybe you buy it online. That's easy. But bars are a little different.

And that's true. I've been working in export for all my career, so I was always selling the small brands in that country. It was a big brand like Peroni or Pilsen oracle, but when nobody knows them, it's not in the whole market. So it's always a challenge. And the interesting thing was that like whenever I was taken out for a bar visit, like a bar tour or trade visits as we call them, or when I was taking people out, you wouldn't imagine how many senior people do not get it.

Like they don't even know how to behave in a bar. They think that the owners of the bar, they walk in, they start taking the bottle, they start touching stuff around. They start taking pictures. They start taking pictures like you're a Cape Canaveral. And it's it's incredible because then you see this guy is a super senior guy or girl.

And that's what it's astonishing because it's do I really need to make a point outside of the door? Like, guys, please behave. Follow me. Don't make a mess. Don't ask stupid questions and so on.

But that's how it happens because as as we said before, like, that they are not bar people or they don't get it or they forgot because they used to go out thirty years ago and the bar scene thirty years ago was slightly different than today. And this is the interesting thing about the development of the on trade business and why even though in many markets is actually a fraction of the off trade sales, it still retains the most important aspects of launching and scaling an alcoholic beverage?

Yeah. Again, for my listeners, with the exception of Asia, everywhere around the world, the off premise liquor stores is usually 80% of spirit sales. Like in Ireland where I'm from, it's 88. Now, believe it or not, that's weird. You would think people drank more in pubs in Ireland, but I think they just buy lots from liquor stores.

Yeah. So therefore on a logical basis, concentrate on liquor stores, but that's not actually how it works. The on trade is your shop window. It's how you get press. It's how consumers hear about you.

It's very powerful. And in even a medium sized country, say The UK, even if it's only 10 or 15% of sales, that's quite a lot. And you can win there. So I wanna ask you a question, Chris. Imagine you're a little liquor brand, specifically a liquor brand, and you're focusing on trade and you're focused on cocktails, and you've basically got no money or almost no money.

Everything comes from sales, whatever you have. What are the two or three things you think a little brand like that should be doing?

First of all is translate that brand into a commercial proposition. So really be crystal clear in in understanding what you are explaining to distributors, salespeople, bartenders. What do you want them to know about your brand? And it's not about how you fell in love with the recipe of your great grandfather. It's really who is this for?

How do you drink it? What's the best occasion to drink it? And understand which type of bars or restaurant you want to sell to. Just make it three, four typologies. And then pick a city, which in theory should be your own city because that's where you should win first and map those outlets out.

So it could be like a modern Italian restaurant, whatever, sushi restaurants and cocktail bars focusing on organic ingredients, whatever. I'm just making it up. Take your 50 kind of bars and then understand, map them out and get a system in place to go and hunt them, present your brand and really focus on those first. But as I always like to say, it's a case in one bar is better than one bottle in six bars or six bottles. It's still one case, it's still six bottles, but you want to ensure the rotation before moving on to the next one because you want to ensure that if I manage to get my brand into Philips bar, then people know that there is my brand because it's not like on the third row on the back bar, but Philip is making cocktails out of it or he's recommending it as an aperitif or as a digestive or whatever.

So people actually are using the product. And then I move on to the next one through a system. And then once that you win in a city, you move to her next city. That's all for today. So thank you for joining me on the Maffeiro Drinks podcast.

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