Chris, huge thank you for making time today. I'm a big fan of the podcast. I've been listening to it for years. I'm highly recommend to everyone. I've got a a much smaller audience, hopefully a high quality audience, but not of the same scale.
Mark Burgess:But I'm a huge fan of the inside. I talk regularly to people about bottom up strategy, which, of course, I got from you. A lot of my information is secondhand on that side. But anyway, jumping into the first question, and this is specifically on Bottom Up. You've built much of your work around the belief that brands are built from the bottom up.
Mark Burgess:For someone hearing this philosophy for the first time, what does Bottom Up brand building actually mean for you? And what do you think the industry has traditionally got wrong?
Chris Maffeo:Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain it, because this is one of the things that gets misunderstood. So for me, in a nutshell, it would be building at a pace that doesn't jeopardize the future. Yeah. Because I'm not a purist. It's not about bottom up against top down, but the industry tends to think top down because that's the path of least resistance.
Chris Maffeo:When the water flows, flows top down automatically. So I'm here to remind everybody that brands are built bottom up. And the reason for that is that you have to start from the foundation. It's very typical for companies to have their targets and creating in a boardroom and we need to grow plus 10%. We need to grow plus 5%, but ultimately it has to make sense for the DRINKS ecosystem.
Chris Maffeo:So that doesn't jeopardize the future part is crucial because you may go for opportunities. I'm not here to say, no, don't do that. You have to follow the playbook because there's no playbook. Just that it has to make sense. And whenever you are in a position where, okay, do I go left or right?
Chris Maffeo:And if there's a short term gain, but you foresee a long term risk, then don't do it. If you see that there is no risk for the long term, then it's like, whatever, let's go for it. Let's take this shortcut because it doesn't really harm the business.
Mark Burgess:So, you could probably summarize in a way that overall having a strategic view of more bottom up, but in tandem, you're able to make tactical moves that are opportunistic if they are correct. You're assessing it from a low risk perspective. Okay to have both of those things happening. Does that?
Chris Maffeo:Yeah, I give you a real example so that it doesn't stay top line. Imagine giving a discount to a big account, you know, you are selling to a non trade account and all of a sudden you have this opportunity and the guys are telling you, okay, if you give me a huge kickback, I can put this not as a fancy cocktail on the menu, but I can put it in the speed rack because I'm gonna use it as the house pour on this particular drink, for example. No?
Mark Burgess:Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:So you're gonna go for it because it's like, wow. Okay. Then that person may be a prestige account that has lots of connection within the ecosystem because we have to remember that the ecosystem is all interconnected. It's like, if I give that huge discount to that person, what happens when the news spills? And when everybody in the city are going to find out about that deal Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:How can I cope with it? Am I gonna do the deal to everybody? I cannot do it for a budget perspective. Do I go let's reach the target this year by doing that, or it's better to say, sorry. You know, put me on the tenth cocktail.
Mark Burgess:Mhmm.
Chris Maffeo:I don't mind. I'll give you small support, but I can't afford it right now because of the reputation of the brand that I'm trying to build.
Mark Burgess:Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. It did take me a long time because I was saying people, in fact, bottom up when it was pushed forward. And what exactly does that mean? I was trying to explain it, but in my head thinking, I don't know if I fully understand this.
Mark Burgess:This is great. It's great to get your perspective. Very useful. I'm still learning, and I think my opinion six months of what bottom up means will probably have evolved.
Chris Maffeo:Mine as well, to be honest. It's very empirical. Ultimately, I'm I'm from the school of, empiricists. It's what the market says. And then you update your beliefs because this is another thing that is crucial for me is that I thought that I had the playbook when I left B corporate.
Chris Maffeo:I had successful launches, successful brands. I thought that, okay, I can take this knowledge and then plug and play, but it doesn't work like that. You know, you have to always update your beliefs for what works, and then you have to make small experiments, which is also another aspect of building bottom up. What is very clear. It doesn't mean building slow.
Chris Maffeo:Lots of people think it means building slow one by one, one bar. It's not exactly that. You have to do that, but keep in mind the scale element. Otherwise, we're building a hobby. We're not building a business.
Chris Maffeo:But at the same time, it has to be feasible and doable in what our targets are.
Mark Burgess:You know, that makes total sense. I was looking this morning as one of your posts, which kind of ties into this. You talked about the curse of the spirits industry, shelf life when the idea of just getting a bottle in there. That's great. But because of the shelf life, it might just sit there as a nice looking ornament.
Mark Burgess:So the question was, you've argued getting a bottle placed doesn't necessarily mean that you've won distribution and that the industry should focus more on velocity and reorder rather than simply presence. Do you believe the beverage alcohol industry is measuring brand success using the wrong metrics?
Chris Maffeo:I stand by my words on LinkedIn. The challenge here is that the business tend to think I'll grow distribution and I'll succeed. I remember when I was managing The US markets of one of my previous jobs, there was a distributor meeting room and there was a big poster distribution sales. When I entered the spirits industry quite late after beer, I was surprised by the focus on getting a bottle on the back bar, which is obviously the first step you do in spirits. But you may go into a bar and see lots of bottles on the back bar, and they may be there already for five years because an old salesperson has left the sample or there was a deal and they got a one plus one or they got one free because it was a big launch.
Chris Maffeo:Whatever the reason, I still see bottles that have changed three packaging in the meantime. So I never thought about it in that terms at the beginning. Now when I thought about it in hindsight, then I thought probably my blessing was that I started in beer and beer expires. And apart from the expiry date of a closed container, whether it's can or kegs or bottles. Once you open the keg on draft, after three days, more or less, depending on which beer it is, it goes bad.
Chris Maffeo:And the other thing is that when you talk about draft beer, there is an investment that you have to make upfront because there is the the font, the equipments Yeah. The cleaning, the pipes, the service. So you only focus on the outlets that can guarantee a throughput. And I've been doing this forever when I was working for Pilsner Riquel that is it's an amazing product, but it's very delicate compared to other lagers. And at some point, there was a big wave of launching drafts everywhere.
Chris Maffeo:And then when I came in and I started doing an audit about what is the situation in the markets, in the various markets in Europe, and then all of a sudden, very few pubs were actually doing two kegs per week. Yeah. Because the easy math was lucky. Let's say two kegs per week is a minimum. So going back to spirits, when you don't have that mindset, take this bottle, do me a favor, Mark.
Chris Maffeo:You have a great bar. I need to get this tick on my CRM. Put it on the back bar. When you change the menu, put it on the menu. See if it sells, if it doesn't sell, whatever, this is on me.
Chris Maffeo:And it's a distribution point, but actually nobody knows that you have a distribution point. So another person or a customer, a management team may come into your bar and you don't even remember you have that brand.
Mark Burgess:Do you think that the advocacy team, companies that really invest in in bartender advocacy, do you think that's a a natural solution for for that measurement of metric that there's the follow-up and there's the relationship and there's the time given. Is that one of the ways of equalizing this a little bit?
Chris Maffeo:So no. I have my take on advocacy that it has to make sense at the same time because advocacy programs have taken a very loose, We build the brand for the future kind of thing. We don't want to be accountable. We just do events and tastings kind of thing. But yes, in a way, yes.
Chris Maffeo:If you have a hunting and farming team, the person that gets into the account and the person that has to farm the sales into that account, they have to work in tandem. They must have shared KPIs. There's this element about having a proper segmentation. Don't place it in the place that doesn't make sense because ultimately, brand building in spirits or in any categories is very simple. If you think about it, it has to make sense.
Chris Maffeo:It's a DRINKS ecosystem, and the more people it makes sense for, the more chances you have to succeed. If it makes sense, a marketing department is creating something. It has to make sense for the salespeople. It has to make sense for the distributor, for the distributor salespeople, for the bar owner, for the bar staff, for the wait staff and for the consumers. Ultimately, that is ultimately what it is, which is not easy.
Chris Maffeo:It's simple, but it's not easy.
Mark Burgess:Good food for thought on that. So I was going back to your experience and I found it really interesting because a lot of searches I worked on recently, I've looked outside of spirits, you know, to either outside of all completely into CPG or FMCG or into beer. And there seems to be a huge amount of desire from spirits companies to bring in beer mindsets, which I think is really, really interesting. It's probably a different conversation. But onto the question.
Mark Burgess:So you've worked inside major global businesses, including South Miller, Asahi, Carlsberg. I've done a little bit of work, I've taken a lot of people out of those businesses over the years. I always found a really high caliber and now advise brands and leadership teams. Where do you most often see a disconnect between the strategy agreed in the boardroom and what actually happens in the trade?
Chris Maffeo:This is the million dollar question. I think there is a disconnect because there's few elements. One part of the element is that people that do a career bottom up, when they reach the top, they often forget about the trade. Once you enter the office, it's difficult to leave the office. It's easier to stay in the office in kind of like comfortable walls than going out and facing a complaint about a bartender, a customer and so on.
Chris Maffeo:You mentioned, for example, the cross pollination of industries now. So beer spirits, there is very often, and I've seen it myself because I've been trying to enter spirits for many years, even when I was in beer because I was drawn much more onto spirits than beer. I've always struggled to get a job in spirits because I was not from spirits. Sometimes you feel it, sometimes they tell you, but it's a very inner circle somehow. Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:People update their own beliefs based on the ego chamber. So because when people are moving jobs, it's inbred somehow the industry. You tend to bring what you consider best practices from your previous jobs. And then it becomes, you know, there are these kind of like clusters that I've noticed come. And I've been part of it myself.
Chris Maffeo:When we enter Casper, we were quite a few people from S. A. B. Miller. So all of a sudden, we had the stamp.
Chris Maffeo:No. Okay. Oh, we should do it like we did in SCB. Yeah. Let's let's do it like we did in Casper.
Chris Maffeo:Start to have these kind of like groups of people that have the same kind of beliefs, and they don't want to challenge those beliefs. I'm not saying it in a bad way, a path of least resistance because we're all busy. We all do our own things and so on. So the challenge with that is that you have dreams because you come from a company that had different kind of resources and capabilities where you could do certain things. And then in the new company, you cannot do those certain things.
Chris Maffeo:But you think you can because it's still you, and you think it was you. But actually, was you with other people and with the resources of your previous company. So you cannot fast track things. And sometimes people get hired because of that. It's like, hey.
Chris Maffeo:What you did in company x y zed? Can you do it here? Well, I can, but, you know, I've got a tenth of the budget and a fifth of the people. I can try, but I'm never gonna say that. So it's gonna be sure.
Chris Maffeo:Sure. We can. And then it creates this disconnect between you're losing the people because especially people that have a long legacy in the company, they struggle because they don't recognize the management anymore because there's this influx of new people. And then they may come, for example, from other FMCG company where they're not used to work with on trade because on trade doesn't exist in those categories. Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:And then all of a sudden, it's like, let's remove the budget from the on trade. How much are we selling? 20 on, 80 off? Sorry. That's the wrong allocation of resources.
Chris Maffeo:Let's cut some budget and let's put it in the off trade. But without having done the bottom up groundwork and the foundational work, it doesn't work. It's a kind of like vicious circle. The interesting thing for me is that whenever I'm talking to people, we tend to agree on the one to one conversation. Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:But then when you enter the boardroom, all these contrasting forces happen, and it's a management team kind of work to align all those forces to create a massive force to go out in the trade and fight with competition instead of fighting each other.
Mark Burgess:I think you hit on a really interesting point there as well that, you know, the potential replication of strategy. This is the way we did it. I know this works. I've climbed that mountain. I have the roadmap.
Mark Burgess:But then people who are either consulting or moving from a large corporate into a smaller company, smaller budget, smaller team, more hands on, higher accountability where they don't necessarily have the finances to push through the same sort of strategy. So then you're having to look at things in a completely different way. And from a talent perspective, I always find it really interesting that there's always a percentage of outliers, you know, so whether it be Diageo or AB InBev or Cardi or it doesn't really matter what the company is, could be Unilever, Procter and Gamble, Wreckers, you know, that there's usually outliers within those organizations who've done really well, but they have that entrepreneurial mindset so they can also make it work when you take away the budgets. But that's very rare, very rare.
Chris Maffeo:And they have to get the they also have to get the buy in from the company because sometimes you're a king without a kingdom. Yes. I have no army. I'm a fancy general, and I can go out there and fight myself, but I also have to do other things. So how can I do that?
Mark Burgess:Most people say it as well. When I'm in initial outreach phase, I'm talking to a lot of people. The vast majority of people want more entrepreneurial and more accountability. I want to be a bigger cog and a smaller machine. I want to be part of the decision making process.
Mark Burgess:But then when you really dig into functionally day to day, potentially what that looks like, you find that number shrinks very quickly because there's an uncomfortable side. Now, for some, it's not so uncomfortable, but for many it is. So, I got it. I personally could only ever work in the small. The big wouldn't suit me, but I get it.
Mark Burgess:I can empathize. Looking into the future questions. So the beverage alcohol industry is going through a period of significant realignment. Looking ahead over the next five to ten years, what do you believe might be some of the larger forces shaping the industry?
Chris Maffeo:I'm always skeptical as I told you, giving foreseeable future because
Mark Burgess:But we'll come back in five years and we'll look at these answers.
Chris Maffeo:And then it's like, what the hell did they say? But for me, it's connected to what we were discussing. There must be a realignment on you know, I had this good discussion about bottom up all the time and Mhmm. Sorry, but, you know, it's the only way. You know, it's not that I'm right or top down is wrong, you know, like it's about bridging, you know, how you do it, which is bottom up with top down expectations.
Chris Maffeo:And what I've seen companies doing wrong is that they try to go for a shortcut. They think they don't have time or they may not have time, and they want to rush it. But you can't rush it. You know, you can't build even a three story apartment, not even talking about a skyscraper without solid foundations deep into the ground because you just cannot. But I only want the rooftop.
Chris Maffeo:Yeah. It's okay. But the rooftop is gonna be at the ground level if you don't build solid foundation. So for me, it's a little bit like football when you're losing two nil and you're eighty minutes into you've got ten minutes left. You know, what do you do?
Chris Maffeo:You know, you just start shooting the ball and, you know, trying to score from the midfield, Or do you try to come down and play? And this is what I think will need to happen in the next five to ten years to stop this crazy growth for crazy numbers because they just cannot come. It's impossible. You can have all the resources of the world, the best people, the best capabilities. The first thing is self awareness.
Chris Maffeo:Who am I and what can I do and what can we do as a company? Because I see visions of companies around the world, and some of them are like, who the hell has made these statements? Like, what what were they dreaming about? It's like me wanting to win Champions League with my friends playing football. It's just like you just cannot.
Chris Maffeo:It's not about diminishing the companies, but the market is what it is. Trends are what they are. You just have to really go out there, learn from the market, do small experiments, and try to score a draw at the beginning and then try to win.
Mark Burgess:Brilliant. Love us. Love us. I think I ask this question to everyone. So you've worked alongside some exceptional people throughout your career.
Mark Burgess:Looking back, what separates those who consistently exceed expectations from those with similar talent who never quite fulfill their potential? It could be any level. It could be right from CEOs right down to teams, but a functional what from behaviors point of view, are there behaviors you think are associated more with genuine success?
Chris Maffeo:I would say in one word could be honesty, self honesty. And I don't mean don't steal kind of commandments thing, but really being honest with yourself. Yeah. With the team, you know, I'm a little bit biased on that because I am like that, you know, I cannot do otherwise. For example, when I realized I wanted to be a director in big companies, I realized, you know, I've reached the level and I realized, is that it?
Chris Maffeo:You know, like, I don't really like it, You know? Mhmm. I could have continued to lie to myself and make it somehow.
Mark Burgess:Mhmm.
Chris Maffeo:But I've realized that's not for me. Mhmm. And what I see as a common pattern is that regardless if it's a junior person or a CEO, is the ability to have a proper conversation, a honest conversation, and say, Mark, this is what you want or what I think you want. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is what I want.
Chris Maffeo:We may disagree. We may have misalignments. Mhmm. Let's make it work together. Let's play with open cards.
Chris Maffeo:This works with distributors, with importers, with customers. That's how I sell. Yeah. I know that you make more money on wine, but I'm selling spirits. So let's try to see how to work on your cocktail list and cocktail pricing so that it makes more sense for you to sell a cocktail than a glass of wine.
Chris Maffeo:It's useless to say to put a mask on and say, no. You were gonna make lots of money with my brand selling cocktails, although I know that it makes more money on wine. So it's this kind of thing that I've seen working much better, and those are the kinda, like, long standing relationships. You know? And I see myself.
Chris Maffeo:You know? I've been in the industry for for many years, and you bump into people that you may have worked on before. And, you know, right away, you click on, you know, you know, it's like, well, who did you work with or did you work with? And then all of a sudden, it's just like, okay. This were the same kind of guys or girls.
Chris Maffeo:I trust this guy. All of a sudden, you attract each other in management and in recruitment. And then all of a sudden, it's like, okay. If there are these three people in this company and they tell me this is a great company to work for. But then all of a sudden, if I start to see a person that I don't trust business wise making a career in a company, that is already a bit of a red flag for me.
Mark Burgess:I think that's super interesting because and whether you call it authenticity or honesty or, you know, it's all circling roughly the same thing. I think people are smart. Consumers are smart. Shoppers are smart. People in bars are smart.
Mark Burgess:Everyone is smart to the point where they know when they're being sold to. They know when it's transactional. They know when it's rehearsed. They know when it's a script. And no matter how well versed you are at delivering that script and being a really good salesperson, I think people know.
Mark Burgess:I personally switch off. Usually I'll try and be polite, sometimes not, you know, but but I'll switch off somewhere in my mind. Whereas if it's authentic, I always say to people when they're interviewing, if you're passionate about something, let it come through. Don't be embarrassed to be passionate about it because it's authentic and it's very difficult to fake. So, yeah, I love that.
Mark Burgess:It's probably the most consistent answer I've got, like variations of what you just say, probably the most consistent at a CEO level. I hear that a lot. So that's interesting. Thank you. The thing that I've become an expert in over the last year, because you said it in one of your podcasts, if bottom up brand building makes commercial sense, why do so many experienced leaders and well funded companies still default to top down strategies?
Chris Maffeo:I posted something the other day. It was too real conversation that I had. I agree with you. Brands are built bottom up, but try to explain to my boss. There is a kind of self fulfilling thing here now that, you know, if everybody thinks that the other one doesn't believe it, everybody is ashamed to say it out loud.
Chris Maffeo:So the right answer for me would be people think they don't have time. You know? Because if you are a founder, you have investors because you probably make the step a little bit too far ahead from what you could have done or you should have done. Mhmm. So you've got investors and you have to prove to them that you grow fast.
Chris Maffeo:Mhmm. If you are in management, you know, if you are in a big company, you know that you've got, you know, probably you you were called either it was a successful situation, you got that role, so you have pressure not to mess it up, or it was already messed up and then you are called in to fix it. You need to prove yourself as soon as possible. And then you think inside of you, you think you don't have time because probably I'm going to stay here two, three years. So I'm already midyear.
Chris Maffeo:The budgets are done. So it's actually next year, and the time is ticking. So what do I do? And let's try shortcuts. But then you go back to square one.
Chris Maffeo:It's like the monopoly game. You know? Like, you go to jail or you go back to start, you know, because you just cannot fast track it. Ultimately, it's about spotting the you know, you have to make some bets. You know, and then you double down on what works.
Chris Maffeo:But you cannot go all in on something that you don't know if it works. That's a kind of top down mentality. I need to reach the targets. I'm going to reach this target because it's my head on the guillotine.
Mark Burgess:That's brilliant. I love that. That's a part of it I hadn't considered. And I'm not going to name the companies, but let's say that there are organizations where you're moving up maybe every year or every 18. And potentially in those situations, you're focused on the next role within six to eight months of your current role.
Mark Burgess:You're already kind of one foot in, one foot out, which adds to the logic of what you're saying, where it's much more around career progression. How do I tick the boxes? How do I leave a mark? How do I still remain high potential future leader, whatever you wanna call it, but not risk making a mistake and cutting my next move upwards? So that's fascinating.
Mark Burgess:I hadn't thought of it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense.
Chris Maffeo:And to be honest, it depends. Again, it goes back to the honesty and the element that we were discussing before. Because if I take myself on, let's say, my career, I've always whether I was right or wrong, I've always stood by what I believed was good for my brand. And it wasn't about, okay, need to make this target. I've always felt, okay, the brand is my brand.
Chris Maffeo:But whether I was right or wrong, sometimes it has hijacked my career. Like then I could have said couple of more yeses. Yeah. I would have gone further or faster, but I decided not to do it because I want to work with stuff that I like to do. Yes.
Chris Maffeo:Mhmm. I get it. I've been offered many designs to work with off trade. I don't like working with off trade or on big brands with huge budgets. I don't like to work with big brands with huge budgets.
Chris Maffeo:It's not me, but very often these career moves are made on a sold idea of, you know, you must do it this way because then you're gonna do this, this, and then you're gonna become that. So a lot of these people, they kind of like they entered this situation with the fake it till you make it because I'm not that kind of person, but I'm gonna stay here a couple of years only. So I'm gonna succeed in this no matter what. You know? And then you create this top down targets mindset that is unreachable.
Chris Maffeo:And it's not about being like, I want to negotiate softer targets. It's just about let's do what makes sense for the management. And I understand it's especially in big companies, it's difficult because there's bonuses that are, know, STIs, LTI. There's a lot of stuff that you cannot get wrong because otherwise the company is paying a lot of money for short targets. But at the same time, it has to make sense because otherwise you demotivate people, people start to leave.
Chris Maffeo:It's everything is going into the same big bucket of money. You know, is it better to do one year and paying a little bit higher bonuses, but keep the people or not pay bonuses for two years and have people leave and have to rehire everybody and have to get people up to speed for another six to nine months. So there's no right or wrong here. It's just a matter of Mebics.
Mark Burgess:I totally agree. I'll empathize as well. The difference is that you've gone to the upper levels in large corporates. Right? And I never could have done that.
Mark Burgess:And I deny myself aware in that fact that I just wouldn't have the political aptitude to do that. I have a lot of respect for people that can do that, but I also connect with the authenticity that it's gotta be interesting. It's gotta be real. It's gotta be passionate. It's not just about hitting a number.
Mark Burgess:If I'm working something, I'll buy the Browns. I'll drink the Browns. I'll buy it online. So I know what the DTC bit feels like. I'll talk about the brand to people.
Mark Burgess:I'll surround myself with it. And I love the ALK sector, even though it's been challenging over the last number of years. So I get it. I totally get that part. You know, the corporate side, I respect, but but can't get my head around how to succeed at that level and also be good entrepreneurial.
Mark Burgess:So you've spent more than twenty years working across over 30 markets. And I got that from your LinkedIn bio. How much does successful brand building need to change from market to market and where do global businesses most often get localization from?
Chris Maffeo:I've been working pretty much across all continents throughout my career. And just the caveat, I've always been working in export departments within big companies. So it's quite a strange combination because it was huge companies, but I was always in, I like to call it the SWAT team of these companies, the agile teams that were acting a little bit differently than the rest of the organization because we were working with third parties. So many trainings we were going to, it was with people. Like, I was doing, seven jobs.
Chris Maffeo:The job of seven people sitting next to me at the same table because they had there's one thing that companies should understand is that when you go, especially when you work with global brands, because I've been working with global brands, global brands are global, so they have to be in a Pareto, my big love way. It's 8020, but '80 okay. Then it can be seventy thirty, but the majority must be aligned, must be global. And then you have to align the 30% or whatever it is. Where it gets tricky is that it could be from a global strategy, but it could be a huge unit.
Chris Maffeo:Imagine launching Peroni in a market like South Africa was in SAP Miller. You are entering like a monster of an organization where your share of mind is next to zero. Yeah. Then you may go to another country, Sweden, where there is your own company with 10 people in an office, or then you may go into Finland where you have an importer, which is a big importer with 70 people employed. And you may have different share of mind, of portfolio, share of throats within that organization.
Chris Maffeo:So it gets difficult because then all of a sudden you start to go left and right in a barbell situation where it's like, no, we are super global. We are top down and you have to do it this way. Or you can be super borderline anarchic where you say, oh, it's Mark. Let's trust Mark. He knows the market.
Chris Maffeo:We're going to do everything that Mark says and people are going to drink a brand upside down because that's how they drink it in this country. So for me, it's about the majority has to be global, especially when you launch brands internationally, because the majority of the brands are international brands. Then you may have these local monsters of a brand and then they will stay local. And then at the same time, the other tricky thing is that sometimes companies, again, not very self aware. Mhmm.
Chris Maffeo:They see a big success of one brand in one market, and they want to launch it abroad Mhmm. Without thinking nobody cares about that brand abroad. Yeah. I've seen tons of and it's just like, I mean, I can help you, but not gonna succeed. I can tell you from now.
Mark Burgess:An interesting follow-up. I'd love to get your perspective of this. How big a deal or how much importance would you put on the little black book? So let's say you're looking to put someone into Eastern Europe, Europe, Asia doesn't really matter. U.
Mark Burgess:S. Maybe less relevant in The US. How important do you think that little black book or direct experience in a certain market is versus someone who's really good at relationships, taking a global strategy and bring it down to local level and making it relevant. Do you go one way or the other if you had the choice of those two people?
Chris Maffeo:This is a fantastic one. Just like the pros and cons, like, first of all, the black book in a city. It has the downside as well because you don't know what the reputation of the person actually is. You know? It may know everyone, but they may have burned many of those numbers on the black book, you know, and they may have a bad reputation.
Chris Maffeo:I've been myself overexcited by people when traveling to a market. Like, oh, Mark. Wow. You need to we need to launch with Mark because he's amazing. You know?
Chris Maffeo:And then all of a sudden, like staying a few more days, then it's like, who are you working with? Mark? Are you sure? You know? Do you know Mark?
Chris Maffeo:Of course I know Mark. You know what I mean? So for me, the best way is the ability to replicate certain patterns. And we go back to the 8020 approach. I've done that myself that I can go into a market and understand the patterns and then see, these are the steps that must be done.
Chris Maffeo:It's not exactly a playbook because you cannot do it exactly that order, but these are the five things we should do. And then let's find the right people. And then it could be an APR agency or the right distributor. But then you have to have these follow-up questions, you know, as like, hey, we have access to the best distributor in town, but what are their relationship with our competitor? What is the what is the ability on their share of mind?
Chris Maffeo:Yeah. Are they big because they used to sell huge brands? What are they gonna do with our agile, not much A and P budget kind of approach? I've seen these mistakes. You know, I see it daily, honestly.
Chris Maffeo:You know, whenever there's someone and they introduce, oh, this is the new sales guy. This is the new sales girl. It's like, where were you before? Oh, I was at such and such. And I'm like, okay.
Chris Maffeo:Did you hire? Did you disconnect from how this person is used to sell versus how they should sell in this company?
Mark Burgess:Mhmm.
Chris Maffeo:And then all of a sudden, you create your own problems very often. So and it's very tricky because I've been for example, in my last job, I was managing The Americas. I mean, you cannot fly to Chile, to Mexico all the time. So at some point, have to rely on certain people, but certain boxes tick. Ultimately, they are not exactly right because it's another of these things about, you know, lifting the carpet.
Chris Maffeo:You know? You may have the tick the box. I've been working for Diageo, Pernod Ricard, and blah blah blah. But what have you actually done in those companies? Mhmm.
Chris Maffeo:And it's not about that position itself. It's just like compared to what the job is now. And I can tell many people have said, I'd love to hire you, but I'm not gonna hire you because you are going to suffer in this role.
Mark Burgess:This is a question I've reasked myself for years and I'm continuing to. That's brilliant. I love that. So back to the podcast. Through the Maffeo DRINKS Podcast, huge fan.
Mark Burgess:A lot of my information comes secondary from listening to your podcast. So thank you again. You've spoken with a huge range of founders, operators, industry leaders. What have those conversations changed in your own mind? And are there any reoccurring characteristics you see in the people who build genuinely successful brands?
Chris Maffeo:Interesting thing is when I started the podcast, I didn't really know what I wanted to do with the podcast, to be very honest. I started interviewing people. There are more chats. It's more like conversations about topics. But what I didn't realize until later was that it was a very good way for me to challenge my own thinking.
Chris Maffeo:So whenever I was in the trade here in Prague, for example, and trying to sell to a bar Mhmm. And I was testing something, and it was working or not working, then I would ask it to the guest that week. Yes. Then I was like, what do you think about this? Did this and and very often, sometimes I listen myself to very old episodes that are now three and a half years old.
Chris Maffeo:And I'm like, I've changed my mind on this. Very often I it's funny because I go back and say like, oh, shit. I should have asked this question. And then I actually ask the question in the recording. So it's aligned with my thinking, but I've been changing my mind on certain things.
Chris Maffeo:So for example, my big love for entree, you know, I have changed that because now I realize that, for example, bottle shops were playing a huge role, especially in whiskey or in certain type of categories in The US with Wagabe spirits and so on. And I've never thought about it. It's not that I had discharged it, but I never really thought about it. Mhmm. I started challenging the fact that there is no playbook, you know?
Chris Maffeo:So I was trying to come up with a playbook until having a conversation one episode. I was like, hang on a minute. Like, there's no playbook. That's right. There's no playbook.
Chris Maffeo:Am I perceived as someone who is trying to sell you a playbook? Because I don't want to be perceived as that guy. So very often I've changed my mind on things. But also what was very interesting is that it happens with some guests that they come up and they say, I actually disagree with you on this one. And then when we are talking, we realize they're not disagreeing with me.
Chris Maffeo:They misunderstood it. I said it wrong.
Mark Burgess:And
Chris Maffeo:this is the interesting thing that comes to my mind. Sometimes I had some guests, and they were saying, I thought you would never have me on the podcast because we disagree on certain whatever. And I said, no. That's why I want to have you on the podcast because I want to challenge my own thinking. I may come up with even stronger on my position or I may smoothen it.
Chris Maffeo:And this is a learning for companies in general that we tend to disagree and then it becomes this kind of fights. No, I'm not talking to the marketing director. They were disrespectful. And then all of a sudden you may happen to be next to them at dinner. It changes your perspective.
Chris Maffeo:It happens to me. I tell you this one because it's a funny example that there was a director that I we had big fights in the meeting room in one of my clients. We happened to sit at the same table, and we were the first one to arrive at this dinner. And it's like, oh, let's sit next to each other. And then this person came to me and said, actually, listen.
Chris Maffeo:I started listening to your podcast, and I really like it. You know? Like, you really speak the truth, you know, not this corporate not this corporate bullshit that we are talking about. And I was like, that's why we fight. And he was like, yeah, I know.
Chris Maffeo:You made me think about it in a different way. And actually, you're right. And now I understand what you mean by what you're saying in the meeting room. So sometimes it's, I mean, it's good to speak to people because I'm not saying anything mind blowing here, but speak to your perceived enemy in the company, as a customer, as an importer, people that you disagree with. And I had this situation many times with bosses as well, that we went all of a sudden, like some people became my boss and we didn't get along.
Chris Maffeo:And then we became best friends after working together because all of a sudden we started to learn how to work with each other and we went under the surface of what chemistry could do wrong in a meeting room or in a business relationship.
Mark Burgess:That's probably what stood to you when you were in more corporate environments is that you were never a corporate person, I'm guessing.
Chris Maffeo:You're right. Right.
Mark Burgess:But you had the patience to wait for a relationship or you would be a patient in relationships, not to make a complete judgment and then change your behavior around that person. You were patient over time, which is probably a really important skill.
Chris Maffeo:Yes. That's true. A 100%. I was never a corporate person. I I thought I was, but I realized I wasn't.
Chris Maffeo:What about I love working with corporate because I can now bring that kind of flexibility,
Mark Burgess:You know?
Chris Maffeo:And I'm judged as a part of the team. I'm the external person, and I can be myself 100%. And to be honest, I would go a level deeper in a way that because I had a bit of a crisis when I left corporate because I said I don't want to work with corporates. No? But then I started working again with corporate, and I love it.
Chris Maffeo:You know? But I had made this misjudgment myself that I didn't like working with corporate, but you have to find your way of working on certain things because you may not like it because you don't like to be inside the company. It doesn't mean you don't like to work with the company.
Mark Burgess:So your career has taken you from frontline roles early on to sales, marketing, country leadership, senior global leadership positions. How important has that early exposure to customers and the trade been in shaping how you think about brands and commercial strategy today?
Chris Maffeo:That has played a huge role because you don't see the big strategy in the early days because you are focusing on the operations. You have the luxury. You don't know it's a luxury until you realize it was a luxury. And you have the luxury to focus on the small details, but you also have to be a certain type of person. For example, I remember when I used to go to Manchester to learn English since I was 15.
Chris Maffeo:And the first time there was this family, friends that I was with and the mother that I called my English mom, she told me I'd never forget it. I was 15. We were in a shopping mall, and she said, have you thought of being a policeman? And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, you know, because the level of details that you spot in things, you know, the questions I was asking, why is this like this?
Chris Maffeo:Why is that person dressed like this? So you have to be a certain type of person to be in the detail and in the trade because otherwise you will suffer. When I take management teams in, in for trade visits, whatever the country is, you can spot right away the on trade animals and the ones that are not. Some people are really suffering. Yeah.
Chris Maffeo:I used to think I used to judge them in the past. I was like these people, can behave. What the hell? We have to go out with these people. But then I started to learn these people are really suffering in this kind of environments.
Chris Maffeo:If you are that type of person, then you have to make that step because from an HR point of view, it's one of the biggest reasons of failure in my experience of people that are really good at that, but they can't make that mental switch. For example, a bartender becomes a brand ambassador, then they get offered a role as a brand manager, and then they get offered a role as a marketing manager and they burn themselves. Yeah. Because they should have been where the action is, you know? But they got into, I want to have a career.
Chris Maffeo:I want to become marketing director. And then maybe they didn't go to university or they don't like to study, to read. You know, they're more like hands on kind of people. Mhmm. And they don't realize, and we go back to the self awareness bit.
Chris Maffeo:You know? It should be like, thanks for the offer. I'd love to be a marketing manager, but that's not for me. I would burn myself. I'd rather keep my lower salary and what I'm good at and be that for the next ten years.
Chris Maffeo:And you can rely on me because I will be the stable person in your team. There is always this, you know, people are eager to grow because we've been sold this dream of up or out. You know?
Mark Burgess:That's so interesting because it's just a given. Right? And I'll find myself questioning it. Sometimes if I don't see that ambition and I'm gonna make this choice because if I broaden my skill set across to this channel, then I'll be a more obvious choice for manager or director or VP or whatever. You know, we'll all go the country route or I'll stay in the specialization.
Mark Burgess:But I think what I'm missing with that is, well, is that actually the right choice or is that just what's expected of people so they follow it, which means a lot of people end up in roles they probably shouldn't be in?
Chris Maffeo:I remember I tell you an example when I did at Ashridge business school, I did this leadership program with SAB Miller and at the, there was an exit interview with a psychologist after the long time that we had been doing tests and stuff. I remember asking this lady, I can't remember her name unfortunately, but I asked her and I said, you know, I'm a I always make the example like I'm a PowerPoint guy. I'm not an Excel guy. And I asked her, I said like, do you think that for my career should I become more of an Excel type? I learned the Excel thing, not the skills themselves, but as a mindset.
Chris Maffeo:Should I go out of my path for the sake of my career. Mhmm. And she said she was good because she said there's different things. I mean, you can have the the she called it like the school of pain. You know, you can take the school of pain or you can take the school of I can't remember how she called it, but I remember the school of pain because that's stuck with me.
Mark Burgess:I think you're gonna remember
Chris Maffeo:that. And I decided not to take the school of pain, which then eventually led me out of the business. But it's interesting because we never get prompted with that option to say, you are free to it's like the red and the blue pill. You can take the other pill. It's fine.
Chris Maffeo:Like, nobody's going to shoot you if you take the wrong pill. You know?
Mark Burgess:The center of gravity in the global beverage alcohol industry continues to evolve. Looking ahead, which regions or markets do you believe will drive the next wave of growth?
Chris Maffeo:This is a tough one. I mean, Europe has a bit of an issue. So region wise, I think it's not gonna be Europe. I think there's going to be the usual suspects. India and Africa are going to obviously play a role.
Chris Maffeo:But I also think this cross pollination and intersection between beer and spirits, we discussed this a lot in the beer mindset and the spirits mindset, especially with the growth of RTDs. I think companies will realize that there are the mold based RTDs, the spirits based RTDs, there are different route to markets. And then all of a sudden, the spirits will realize that it's a volume kind of game. It's not a high margin, lower volume kind of play. And that's the realm of sodas and CSDs and beer.
Chris Maffeo:So I think there's gonna be more cross pollination than synergies. We've seen it already, like in some countries where they are starting working together with different kinds of companies, because we tend to think on these big companies, but ultimately the majority of the markets are third parties operations. And then you may have a local market for beer and then an import market for spirits. And then instead of going with an importer, they may go with a beer producer or they may go with a water producer. So I think there will be many more economies of scale to be looked for.
Chris Maffeo:I think that's going to change because then it's going to be alignment of these capabilities and what good looks like if you have different categories that are so different from each other, like water, sodas, beer, and spirits.
Mark Burgess:I found myself working more and more in RTDs, which is kind of ironic because I've got a guy in his early fifties who's surrounding himself with RTD brands, I'm far too old to be drinking. I definitely wouldn't be an advert for those brands, but I am fascinated by them. I think they're here to stay, and there was a period of time where I thought this was quite cyclical. And I'm fascinated by cycles of particularly spirits brands. I know a little bit less about beer, very short cycles and vodkas near gems and whiskey of the longer cycle.
Mark Burgess:I always find that really interesting. I thought RTDs was more of a blip, more of a peak. I do think it's definitely here to stay. But I also think a lot of these companies as functional beverages, as that gray area is being explored, are suddenly finding themselves up against where they had competition in beer or spirits. And now suddenly they're up against PepsiCo or they're up against Coca Cola Company or Red Bull.
Chris Maffeo:Exactly.
Mark Burgess:It's a whole different type of competition in channels where those companies have a serious level of expertise and our companies lasso on more traditional retail.
Chris Maffeo:To build on this, one thing that can be interesting is the fact that we tend to think in categories because the trade is shaped that way. Like you are a brand manager of a category of a brand. You're not a brand manager of an occasion, but ultimately I always say that the flow of goods, the route to market is top down. The brand building is actually bottom up because it starts from the occasion. And then when you go out to a bar or to a shelf, it's about the occasion.
Chris Maffeo:Are you going to buy for a barbecue? Are you going to buy for a wedding? Or it changes what you do. And then it's the same thing if you want to have a Corona or Prosecco or Aperol Spritz or maybe you are in a park and you want to have cans of an RTD because you don't you're not gonna bring a bottle of whiskey to the park. But maybe you wanna have highball in a can because you don't want to drink beer, and you want to drink a low ABV highball, which is based on whiskey because you like whiskey.
Chris Maffeo:So, you know, it's about the occasion and the occasion will be more and more prominent and, you know, even companies will understand it more and more. Mhmm. Because that's how people think. People don't think as a company. They think as individual.
Mark Burgess:I remember you making a recommendation, and it doesn't completely relate to this, but just popped into my mind. I think it was around one of the drinks you really enjoy in a bar. Was it for mousse? Just for mousse?
Chris Maffeo:Yes. Right. Exactly.
Mark Burgess:I remember that from a podcast and I've been surrounding myself with drinks, but I haven't been to many bars recently. That's on my hit list, mixing it up.
Chris Maffeo:Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, it and again, like, it's the thing is, like, it has to make sense, you know? Mhmm. If prompting it makes sense. If creating a new spritz or a new something makes sense, it makes sense.
Chris Maffeo:It may work for a category, may not work for another category. It's not about don't do a spritz because it's gonna be a copycat. Test it. Test how people drink it. And if they drink it, you have something to double down on.
Chris Maffeo:Otherwise, you don't. People overcomplicate things very often.
Mark Burgess:So who have been the most influential mentors or leaders in your career and what lessons from them still shape the way you think today?
Chris Maffeo:I would say the interesting thing is that there were bosses, there were leaders in the organization that were a good example or a very bad example as well. There were some that were such a bad example that shaped me to be as far as possible from those examples. So ultimately they were an example. A couple of people that were for example, I remember a job interview that I did when I lived in Finland, and I didn't get the job, but the managing director wanted to meet me, and we met in a hotel for a coffee, and he wanted to give me feedback. And he had nothing to gain from it.
Chris Maffeo:I was a super junior person. It was a management trainee program. I got top three and I didn't get it. He gave me this feedback and he said, really liked your interviews and gave me something, for example. It, this kind of like Maffeo that passed by, I don't even remember his name, but he has a presence in my head.
Chris Maffeo:Like him. Another one was a leader. He had been working for many years in LVMH, and he did a speech for us in one of the big conferences of SEB Miller. He was a guest because he was a friend of the CEO at the time. I loved the speech that he made and it was super well written.
Chris Maffeo:It was amazing. It was like a forty five to one hour kind of speech. And then I was lucky because it was very similar to a previous speech he had done, and they had recorded on a CD. So I got that CD from someone, and I kept on listening to it because I had a forty five minutes drive between Prague and Pilsen. So I used to listen to it at least once a week because it was so inspiring.
Chris Maffeo:And then I transcribed it, not with AI, obviously, because the one that exists. But those points that he made, every time I bump into those items, it was about pricing, the importance of things about not trusting certain things. It was basically his life condensed into forty five minutes, you know? And I know it almost by heart now because I've listened to it so many times. So sometimes what I want to get across is that it's not necessarily the people that you meet daily that are a good example.
Chris Maffeo:It could be random people that pass by your life Yeah. Business life, and they give you powerful messages that you end up living by when you develop your career.
Mark Burgess:That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I love the way you framed it at the beginning. Mostly, it's positive. Sometimes it's something you experience.
Mark Burgess:You think I'm never gonna be like that. I know I'm definitely saying that. For anyone looking to build a successful career in the global Babal category, what advice would you give them? What would be your main points of advice?
Chris Maffeo:This is tough. I would link it back to what we discussed. Be you. Don't fake it till you make it. Try to understand who you are.
Chris Maffeo:Evolve. It's fine to change your mind, but trying to understand the overarching principles of who you are. It doesn't have to be one thing, but I'm sort of against the school of pain that we discussed before. Like it for me, it's like go the path of least resistance of who you are and understand what's in it. And there's so many roles in this industry, the DRINKS ecosystem that you can have.
Chris Maffeo:You can be a distributor, an importer, brand ambassador, a bartender, a marketing person, a logistics person. You can be anything and don't believe what everybody tells you you should do. Try to figure it out by yourself because ultimately it's about you and what you feel comfortable with because otherwise you're going to suffer. And everything is hard. So I don't wanna say that if you take the comfortable route, it's not gonna be hard, but it's going to be less hard because you like what you do.
Mark Burgess:And I guess it's from this conversation and obviously I've listened to you quite a few times, you know, but from this conversation, it's now very easy for me to understand, apart from the expertise, the strategic knowledge of how to build brands and scale markets and all that sort of good stuff, I now get why your clients like you and why you have that reputation. You have this very authentic, real. You're rethinking about the points. You're saying it as you think about it. It's not scripted.
Mark Burgess:You're not saying the popular thing. So it's great. So I got it. It's it's a really nice delivery. I think we can all learn something from that.
Chris Maffeo:Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it.
